Hey all.

Looking ahead, I see Idaho on the horizon of my “All Airports” project. If you're not familiar, I've been working my way through the mountain west (CO,NM, WY) landing at every public airport in the state. Montana is (hopefully) in my immediate future, as almost an appetizer for The Gem State. Still this is not something I take lightly, as Idaho has some the most intense “down in the valley” flying I’ve run into thus far. Short strips, gnarly winds, and high Density Altitudes are all going to force some solid application of pilot skill. I don’t doubt that Betsy and I can do it—but I will need to adjust my methods from “just fly from one to the next until you run out of daylight” to something more structured. Being focused on only public strips helps somewhat here, as does being solo with only necessary camp/survival gear.

I started by analyzing the most demanding airports, and categorizing them by hazards. Big Bar, Lower Loon, Wapshilla, and W E Ranch top the list due to short length, as well as relatively high DAs possible at some. Shearer and Fish Lake have my attention due to blind approaches and no go arounds, respectively. I can mitigate these things in the usual way—stay light on gas & gear, fly the short stuff early/late in the day, and respecting the winds. Studying up on each individual airport and the surrounding terrain is already an important (and importantly fun!) part of my process. I’ve ordered the “Fly Idaho!” books, and have been spending hours watching videos featuring arrivals and departures. The ID DOT’s features have been pleasantly well made. I also intend to join the ID Aviation Association for access to their airstrip map.

Regarding my Betsy’s performance, we went out at just myself and 3/4 tanks on the local grass for some short field work. With an 8500’ DA, we were consistently between 800-1000’ on both the takeoffs and landings. I’ll have to go back out and experiment with full tanks and travel equipment in the back, but it is a decent reference to begin with. Reverse engineering the Density Altitude Rule of Thumb, that puts us at 550’ ground roll at the lower elevation fields like Wapshilla, which is encouraging.

My questions for the experienced Idaho flyers here are:
• What other airports should I give special attention and preparation?
• What other resources (books, etc) have I missed in my hunt for ID knowedge?
• Is there anybody else flying a Stinson around Idaho’s shorter strips?

Cheers, and happy landings.

Fish lake is one that can be a bit of a challenge for under powered aircraft.

I fly a '53 180 with a 520 and a 401, every time I leave Fish Lake there is at least some small amount of tailwind, even pretty early in the morning. Enough that on one trip I carried full power until well past the lake while only getting about 300 fpm climb, where I would normally expect about 1000. With low power that one could have been ugly. I think the book says there are a few airplanes on the bottom of the lake, I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. Its not a blind approach.

Wilson bar is not visible until the last minute, but you likely can continue on down the river if you don't like what you see. I landed there with a side by side probably 20' off my right wing, and I saw tracks from motorcycles doing laps across the runway near the windsock jumping the hill.

Lower loon has a pretty good grade to it so stopping isn't hard unless you are way fast and high.

Fish Lake, Chamberlain, and perhaps Cold Meadows are supposed to get significant work this year, I have not heard when that is supposed to happen, but I expect Chamberlain will be closed for some amount of time to regrade the runway. It is overrun with ground squirrels, and someone rutted it up pretty bad with a tricycle gear plane this spring. The touchdown areas are pretty low compared to the rest of the ground.

Marble is a tougher one, I've only been there once, I landed it downstream. You'll need good reference points to come in from upstream, my recollection is that the runway doesn't appear until quite late, but landing that way you can go around. It requires more performance to get out, as the beginning end of the runway was a little soft when I was there, and there is a hill a few hundred feet past the departure end, and there is very little down hill grade on takeoff.

Indian Creek is kind of blind, but the biggest challenge there is the traffic, lots of traffic going in and out in the late summer to fall. You can land it either way, but standard is upstream. You can do downwind in the canyon and make the turn to land while not losing sight of the runway, but most traffic goes down river and comes back around the corner, that's what makes it kind of blind. It is pretty rough right now with studder bumps from heavy traffic braking. The down stream end of the runway is WAY better, from about the middle to the upstream end has got some deep holes and ruts. Eyes open going there, I was once just starting my takeoff roll and looked up and saw an Islander on downwind, that would have put us head to head with him on final me just rounding the corner after take off, he never made a radio call that I heard.

Thomas gets a ton of traffic in August and September.

Shearer is a tougher one. There is a bunch of "flat" ground prior to the runway, except its not even close to flat. Reference points coming back up river are important.

Always beware of people not on frequency, people calling downwind landing upstream, but actually being on downwind for a downstream landing. The commercial guys call out all kinds of locations that even after living here for 3 years I have no idea where they are. My policy is no information is better than bad information. I like to fly during the week, when there is less traffic, also early mornings. Seems like the commercial guys don't fly very early.

Lots of videos on YouTube showing approaches into many of them.

Getting your flying done early doesn't just apply to the short strips in Idaho. Things can get pretty swirly to say the least when the ground starts to heat up. Some of the most experienced Idaho pilots I know have had their worst experiences at places like Indian Creek and Moose Creek, by many considered to be "easy" when pushing to take off or land in suboptimal conditions.

Cool and smooth air makes a world of difference.

Focusing too heavily on takeoff and landing distances, and runway length probably gets more pilots in trouble in the Idaho Backcountry than any other factor.

At places like Johnson Creek, Big Creek, Moose Creek and Cold Meadows, the strips are long and pilots are lulled into the “easy-peasy” mindset.

The other risk factors associated with mountain and canyon flying are all very high at these strips.

Backcountry flying is about preparing for and dealing with the variability that these environments will present you with. Idaho BC flying can throw a lot at you all at once.

The best strategy that you can operate with is to stack safety margin in your favor through superior flight planning.

I have been flying the Idaho BC regularly for nearly 25 years and strongly recommend that you ditch the mindset of I need to land all of these strips by day A or in year 20XX...

I didn’t start flying into the most hazardous strips until I had 15+ years of flying this territory under my belt.

The knowledge, skills and experience necessary to operate safely in the Idaho Wilderness areas take time to accumulate. Even the best training is no substitute for time spent doing it.

In a low powered airplane, I would work my way into the more technical strips slowly and wait until the late fall, when its cool to bag the strips of the Frank and Selway-Bitteroot wilderness areas.

And, I would not take a Stinson into: Simonds, Mile High, Vines or Hoodoo Meadows. With 165 hp and a fixed pitch prop, you simply cannot operate with adequate flight safety margins. I flew my 170 around these areas for a decade and one day realized that climbing out at 250 fpm into a 300 fpm downdraft isn't ideal.

Some may disagree with me, but I am pretty committed to doing my part to ensure that the NTSB stops getting called out the the Idaho BC.

All good advice above, especially Scolopax's suggestion to avoid the "necessity" to get all these strips in one year. "Flying years" are short in this part of the world, due to weather, environmental conditions, smoke, etc, etc. Tackle it logically, and if it works, fine, if not, there's always next year.

And, join IAA NOW, not later. They have a lot of good information on their website, and they are doing VERY great work for all us backcountry addicts. Support them!!

Scolopax wrote:And, I would not take a Stinson into: Simonds, Mile High, Vines or Hoodoo Meadows. With 165 hp and a fixed pitch prop, you simply cannot operate with adequate flight safety margins. I flew my 170 around these areas for a decade and one day realized that climbing out at 250 fpm into a 300 fpm downdraft isn't ideal.

Hoodoo is the only of of those that is actually open, the Big Creek 4 are, and have been, closed for a while now.

StillLearning wrote:

Scolopax wrote:And, I would not take a Stinson into: Simonds, Mile High, Vines or Hoodoo Meadows. With 165 hp and a fixed pitch prop, you simply cannot operate with adequate flight safety margins. I flew my 170 around these areas for a decade and one day realized that climbing out at 250 fpm into a 300 fpm downdraft isn't ideal.

Hoodoo is the only of of those that is actually open, the Big Creek 4 are, and have been, closed for a while now.

They have actually been “emergency use only” for as long as I can remember. Not exactly closed.

There are some environmental lawyer wankers who have never been near them and some others who have and will never be affected by their use who do not want them used. They raise a kerfuffle every 10 or so years, but they aren’t exactly easy to just shut down and pretend they never existed.

Glad I’ve had the chance to enjoy all of them. The BC4 offer access to very unique and special places

Thanks for the good advice guys. This part of the country demands a high level of preparation, and I intend to apply just that. Thus, my asking about which airports need what attention. I've added a good bit to my notes already. I've also joined the IAA and have a pair of charts headed to my mailbox. They'll be receiving a plenty of attention and scribbles from me.

Knowing which airports a Stinson might not be recommended into is genuinely helpful, as I'd much rather find out now than in the middle of what is supposed to be a takeoff. I'd like to note that I am running a 180hp Lycoming up front, instead of the Franklin 165. More than the extra horsepower, I think being lighter weight is a strength of this conversion. One that I consider with my equipment loading as well. That said, Betsy certainly has limits. You won't be seeing her fly to Hawaii anytime soon...

Like it or not, my format of flying around all these states does work better if I can link strips together. I think my best bet is to fly the actual easy, front country airports of the state together as I have been, in a multi day trip. Then when I have the opportunity, I'll make other long weekend type trips, dipping my toes into the back country strips a few at a time, with no time constraints and all the flexibility I need. At the end of the day, I do this stuff for my own fun, not a paycheck. Makes the no go decision easier.

Regarding Simonds, Mile High, Vines, and Hoodoo Meadows. Best I can tell, the only one actually open to the public currently is Hoodoo, like StillLearning said. That makes it the only one currently on my list, although by the looks of it I'll need a friend with a Super Cub to actually visit. The description on the IAA site for the other three says "require[s] special skills and equipment beyond the normal anticipated for general aviation" puts them outside the spirit of my flying anyway...although Hoodoo being the highest elevation strip in the state has certainly piqued my interest.

Sounds like early fall is my best bet for grabbing cool days before the snow hits. Any regional reason this wouldn't work? Obviously the higher stuff is going to see flakes sooner, but perhaps there are other reasons? Local weather trends, hunting restrictions, etc.

Stinson 108 with a Lycoming O-360 is a great combo. What's your empty weight? Do you have a constant speed or fixed pitch? I would wager you can do most anything in Idaho resembling an airstrip in that setup if you're solo.

Zzz wrote:Stinson 108 with a Lycoming O-360 is a great combo. What's your empty weight? Do you have a constant speed or fixed pitch? I would wager you can do most anything in Idaho resembling an airstrip in that setup if you're solo.

I couldn't agree more! Been loving it ever since the conversion. I'm sitting at 1288# empty, helped by lightweight engine accessories and removal of the rear seats for cargo room. It gives me around 860# useful load. I'm running a fixed Sensenich, pitched to 60". I initially thought I'd want it repitched to max climb, but it really hasn't given me a reason to yet.

I'll be honest, you're saying exactly what I want to hear about Betsy's performance! The more I look at Hoodoo, the more interested I am. It's very, very similar on paper to Elk Park Ranch (34CD) here in my backyard, and I had a ball flying in and out of there before it got new owners (who won't return my calls!).

Trevair wrote:Knowing which airports a Stinson might not be recommended into is genuinely helpful, as I'd much rather find out now than in the middle of what is supposed to be a takeoff. I'd like to note that I am running a 180hp Lycoming up front, instead of the Franklin 165. More than the extra horsepower, I think being lighter weight is a strength of this conversion.

180 hp Lycoming definitely helps to build flight safety margin over the Franklin engines, and your head is in the right place keeping it as light as possible, but always carry the essentials, which is an entirely different subject.

Trevair wrote:Sounds like early fall is my best bet for grabbing cool days before the snow hits. Any regional reason this wouldn't work? Obviously the higher stuff is going to see flakes sooner, but perhaps there are other reasons? Local weather trends, hunting restrictions, etc.

Late September and Early October often present clear skies in the region, with mornings near freezing and daytime highs in the low 70s. The foliage is turning, and there are far fewer people out and about compared to the summertime as an added bonus.

Scolopax wrote:

Trevair wrote:Knowing which airports a Stinson might not be recommended into is genuinely helpful, as I'd much rather find out now than in the middle of what is supposed to be a takeoff. I'd like to note that I am running a 180hp Lycoming up front, instead of the Franklin 165. More than the extra horsepower, I think being lighter weight is a strength of this conversion.

180 hp Lycoming definitely helps to build flight safety margin over the Franklin engines, and your head is in the right place keeping it as light as possible, but always carry the essentials, which is an entirely different subject.

Trevair wrote:Sounds like early fall is my best bet for grabbing cool days before the snow hits. Any regional reason this wouldn't work? Obviously the higher stuff is going to see flakes sooner, but perhaps there are other reasons? Local weather trends, hunting restrictions, etc.

Late September and Early October often present clear skies in the region, with mornings near freezing and daytime highs in the low 70s. The foliage is turning, and there are far fewer people out and about compared to the summertime as an added bonus.

Now those are my kind of temps! Gives me time to prep as well.

The "Fly Idaho!" booklets and chart came in recently, so I'll be busy with those a while.

I've had this chart kicking around for a while pretty sure it's from a Boise flying club, over the years I've been working my way from Level I upwards. I've only been in to a few IIIs, and I probably won't get into many more without a CFI or pilot with experience in the right seat. Just not worth trying to cowboy it.

Of the ones you mentioned, Wapsilla and Big Bar (really anything in Hells Canyon) largely depends on how the wind is swirling that day. Wap specifically gets some strange feeling because it's up that tight draw away from the river. Can't really know until you get there if you'll be able to land that day - especially the first time.

Lower Loon has claimed many folks. Anytime it's warm you will have a sinker on approach in there due to the cold air over the river. Two approaches I see people do. 1) stay in the downer with extra power and fly up the river to a short turn onto final - OR - 2) set up over the opposite side of the river and have more of a straight-in but be ready with the power as you cross the river. I have done both, but typically do option 2.

Only think about HooDoo when it's cool/bordering cold. That is some rare country out there, the Bighorns are beautiful - if you are up that way, continue up to Ship Lake to take a look at some amazing scenery.

None of the ID BC can be taken for granted. There's too much to list in one post but there are many no-go-around strips so you should get some briefings on those before attempting. Including but not limited to: Wilson Bar, Dewey Moore, Lower Loon, Atlanta, etc. There are also some that have a go-around option (depending on what you are flying) but the decision is made way early like Big Creek, Cabin Creek, Mahoney, Dixie forest, Thomas Creek, etc.

Joining IAA was a great start. Send some PM's if you have specific questions. One of us may be up that way at the same time; if it's me, I'm happy to show you around.

EvilEagle wrote:Of the ones you mentioned, Wapsilla and Big Bar (really anything in Hells Canyon) largely depends on how the wind is swirling that day. Wap specifically gets some strange feeling because it's up that tight draw away from the river. Can't really know until you get there if you'll be able to land that day - especially the first time.

I would plan for Wapshilla on a calm day.

Aborting a landing from a short final would be a terrible idea, unless you really enjoy trying to out climb steep terrain with rapidly diminishing maneuvering space.

I've been there several times and always notice that this was as much of a no-go-around airstrip as Cabin Creek.

Scolopax wrote:I would plan for Wapshilla on a calm day.

Aborting a landing from a short final would be a terrible idea, unless you really enjoy trying to out climb steep terrain with rapidly diminishing maneuvering space.

I've been there several times and always notice that this was as much of a no-go-around airstrip as Cabin Creek.

Agree on all counts.