I'm looking at buying a property but it is inside the class D airspace of our local airport. Our local county statutes do not have provisions for private runways so I can't have an official runway but I could land on the edge of the farm field and risk 'nuisance' complaints. But according to the county even if they did have provisions for private airports they wouldn't provide any protection from nuisance complaints.

So far I haven't found anything in the regs that addresses this kind of scenario. Anyone have a runway inside controlled airspace?

I've been in and out of Sunset in Hillsboro quite a bit. It's not a big deal at all. You of course have to call tower to get a clearance going in and out, but it's easy.

How busy is the class D? HIO is quite busy but getting cleared to land the strip is always very quick.

Biggest issue is usually reception of transmissions between you and tower when you're on the ground.

In this age, maybe a quick cellphone call / text to the tower would work OK for getting takeoff clearance.

It's not busy at all. IMO we shouldn't even have a control tower and delta airspace.

So as long as I can talk to them before takeoff it should be doable. Thanks Z.

Up here there are a number of private runways, both on and not on sectionals under Kenai's Class D airspace. One just needs to call the tower and let them know you want to land at the strip. I've done that quit a few times, the tower usually just wants to know when I'm on final. Departing I contact tower and let them know I'm ready to take off and what direction I'm headed.

+1 on everything said. Add the towers phone number to your contact list. They can clear you to land or take off via phone if you can't get them on the radio.

CW

Zzz wrote:I've been in and out of Sunset in Hillsboro quite a bit. It's not a big deal at all. You of course have to call tower to get a clearance going in and out, but it's easy.

How busy is the class D? HIO is quite busy but getting cleared to land the strip is always very quick.

Biggest issue is usually reception of transmissions between you and tower when you're on the ground.

Ah, but follow the regulations, and there's no issue......the regulation states that when departing from a runway within a Class D surface area, you should contact the tower "as soon as practicable after takeoff".

Here's the reg: From 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace

(2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class D airspace area; or

(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.


At one point, I counted 14 private runways within the Fairbanks Class D surface area. People are coming and going from those all the time. Tower never blinks. In fact, the Chena River is used for float ops regularly in summer, and it's literally a couple hundred meters west of the main runway at FAI. Call for landing there, the tower asks if you're going to be doing training there, you call affirmative, and they tell you to remain below the traffic pattern for Runway 19 Right.....and switch to the CTAF frequency.

If your tower gives you shit over launching without clearance, tell em to read 91.129. But, they know that.


MTV

One thing you might want to research is what happens to the airspace when the class D pavement goes IFR. My understanding is that the tower no longer owns the airspace, Center does. So if you have a clear window to get in or out of your field, but the paved field is IFR, I'm not sure you'd be able to fly.

You can ask for special VFR, but I don't know if the tower has the authority (or inclination) to grant Special to someone not operating off their field.

Hammer wrote:One thing you might want to research is what happens to the airspace when the class D pavement goes IFR. My understanding is that the tower no longer owns the airspace, Center does. So if you have a clear window to get in or out of your field, but the paved field is IFR, I'm not sure you'd be able to fly.

You can ask for special VFR, but I don't know if the tower has the authority (or inclination) to grant Special to someone not operating off their field.

No, when the airspace is below basic VFR (1000 and 3 miles) you need a clearance to operate in that airspace. A clearance is a different animal than "establishing two way radio communication", which is all you do to enter Class D airspace under VFR....no "clearance" required.

There are circumstances where you MAY be able to depart such an airport when the airport you're departing from is in the clear, but the tower controlled airport (the airport the Delta airspace is based on) is IFR....but that gets pretty technical.

Me, in that case, I'd call the tower on cell phone, or radio if you can talk to them via radio, and request a SVFR departure from the surface area. But, understand that if weather is below SVFR (less than 1 mile vis) at their airport, with the official weather observation, they aren't going to issue a SVFR clearance either.

MTV

mtv wrote:

Zzz wrote:I've been in and out of Sunset in Hillsboro quite a bit. It's not a big deal at all. You of course have to call tower to get a clearance going in and out, but it's easy.

How busy is the class D? HIO is quite busy but getting cleared to land the strip is always very quick.

Biggest issue is usually reception of transmissions between you and tower when you're on the ground.

Ah, but follow the regulations, and there's no issue......the regulation states that when departing from a runway within a Class D surface area, you should contact the tower "as soon as practicable after takeoff".

Here's the reg: From 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace

(2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class D airspace area; or

(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.


At one point, I counted 14 private runways within the Fairbanks Class D surface area. People are coming and going from those all the time. Tower never blinks. In fact, the Chena River is used for float ops regularly in summer, and it's literally a couple hundred meters west of the main runway at FAI. Call for landing there, the tower asks if you're going to be doing training there, you call affirmative, and they tell you to remain below the traffic pattern for Runway 19 Right.....and switch to the CTAF frequency.

If your tower gives you shit over launching without clearance, tell em to read 91.129. But, they know that.


MTV

Thanks for that. I have actually done just that, but I didn't want to admit it in a public forum because I didnt know that detail of the reg.

At Sunset, it's so close to the boundary of the D that I have taken off several times and been out of the airspace before I'm even at 200 AGL, so I don't bother calling. Good to monitor the frequency though because it gives you some good situational awareness too.

mtv wrote:
Me, in that case, I'd call the tower on cell phone, or radio if you can talk to them via radio, and request a SVFR departure from the surface area. But, understand that if weather is below SVFR (less than 1 mile vis) at their airport, with the official weather observation, they aren't going to issue a SVFR clearance either.

MTV

Would Center? For example, let's say you ask for a special into an uncontrolled airport. You can do that with 1 mile and clear of clouds and call Center for the clearance which they will do with radar right? They only need to confirm that you are alone in there. So a towered airport won't grant a special onto their surface maybe but they are not really doing that when asked for a special to a different field in their circle. The 1 mile and clear of clouds is ALWAYS up to the PIC isn't it? Look at Astoria Oregon for instance. It's got a keyhole of E space right down to the ground that is intended for that purpose. I think. I had a flight review yesterday and found out I'm not much of a pilot any more so I'm likely wrong.

Along the same lines just for giggles, look at Truckee California. That's a towered airport that is NOT IN CLASS D as of the current sectional. It's in class E.

ATC is ATC. They cannot issue a SVFR in cipontrolled airspace when conditions are REPORTED below Basic VFR.

There is a long series of arguments over whether you can legally fly within a Delta airspace when conditions at the primary airport are below VFR. ATC will not issue a clearance. If you choose to depart, it’s on you. Yes, weather is what you see out the windshield. Try departing a field in IMC sometime VFR by telling the tower you can see a mile.

Report back por favor.

Trukee is Echo airspace, which means all the same rules apply, except the requirement to establish two way comm. I assume they have some special procedures via notam that address that.

Nevertheless, controlled airspace is controlled. Heck, you can get a SVFR Clearance via AFSS. Notice I didn’t say that AFSS would ISSUE a SVFR Clearance.

MTV

MTV is right. I've been sitting on our closest class D airport wanting to take off, with 98% of the strip and the tower in blue bird sunshine, but it was reporting IFR because the weather sensor was at the 2% end of the runway. Tower and I both had a chuckle, but he still would not let me leave...

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mtv wrote: Yes, weather is what you see out the windshield. Try departing a field in IMC sometime VFR by telling the tower you can see a mile.

Report back por favor

MTV

Thanks Mike. This is a good discussion.

Depends. I've heard of Nav Canada personnel inquiring of charter pilots what their company minimum departure requirements were. Shortly thereafter, a special METAR was issued that aligned with those requirements. Following the departure, another special was issued, possibly more reflective of the real conditions.

There were some key phrases needed that provided the correct message, but incriminated no one. Essentially, you need to know specifically how to ask. None of this could happen when there was other inbound or outbound traffic though.

Thanks guys; great discussion and very helpful. The tower personnel here are quite good. I just didn't know if there was something that would make landing in a field within the D more difficult. Sounds like it is a non issue.

I wouldn't be able to keep the plane here full time but since there is already a hangar, an old shop with literally a hangar door for a swather, I could just keep it here when my neighbor gives the ok to use his field.

Whee,

First thing I’d do is go talk to the ATC Chief there, and explain what you plan to do, and ask him/her for thoughts and suggestions on how to “blend in”.

When I started operating at BZN, I was following the leader, loooong taxi to and from, etc, or heading to cross runway, but launching to north, across active. One day after landing, I got the dreaded “Please give the tower a call when parked”. I did, talked to the Chief, who said, “Ya know, if you ask for 21 at Alpha taxiway, we can clear you to go south when traffic is landing or taking off on 12. Then ask to land on 3 when returning, and you’ll never cross the active, and we can get you out and in quickly.”

I’ve followed his advice since and virtually never hold.

Chat them up and they may offer a way to avoid any potential conflicts before they happen.

MTV

Pinecone wrote:Depends. I've heard of Nav Canada personnel inquiring of charter pilots what their company minimum departure requirements were. Shortly thereafter, a special METAR was issued that aligned with those requirements. Following the departure, another special was issued, possibly more reflective of the real conditions.

There were some key phrases needed that provided the correct message, but incriminated no one. Essentially, you need to know specifically how to ask. None of this could happen when there was other inbound or outbound traffic though.

A related story:

I was returning to Kodiak state airport (ADQ) in an amphib Beaver one day, in rapidly deteriorating weather. The pass from the west side (Buskin) was closed, so I went through Ouzunkie Narrows, around the north end of the Island.

That would take me right past the boat channel in town, Municipal Airport, and Lilly Lake, the float pond in town. These are all just under 5 miles from ADQ, and all fine landing spots for the Beaver. And the weather as I rounded the corner was kinda okay.

As I rounded the corner, I called Tower at ADQ for weather. Reply was ceiling 600 broken, one mile visibility. I requested a SVFR to ADQ, which the Tower approved.

All I have to do is follow the shoreline as it passed the city and curved around to the approach end of runway 10. The threshold of 10 was right at the mouth of the Buskin River. Cross the river and flare. Piece of cake.

But, as I’m moseying along the shore (and telling/reading this takes a lot longer than doing it) I realize the visibility is nowhere near 1 mile where I’m at. And, it’s getting worse. A lot worse.

Now I realize my only escape route would be to turn left, away from shore, which would put me at 100 feet over open water with no visibility. Perfect. Decision made....we’re going to ADQ.

I asked the tower for wx. update.....”500 over and a scant 1 mile vis.” Hmmmm, “scant mile”? About then an air taxi pilot in a Grumman calls tower and requests taxi clearance to 10 for departure, and an SVFR Clearance out of the zone..

There was a kind of long pause, and Tower cleared him to taxi, and informed there was inbound, so couldn’t issue an SVFR till I landed.

About now, I was really sucking seat cushions up my butt as I followed the shore. I drove the road along that shore pretty much daily, so was very familiar with the “sights” along there and distances. In short, I couldn’t see shit.

But, in for a penny, in for a pound. Select gear down, and start pumping the gear down. Flaps were already down to keep it slow.....a strategy well ingrained during my checkout in the Beaver.

There’s the river! And as I cross the near bank, I can see the REILs on the end of the runway. As I flare, I now see the Grumman at the hold short line, and I’m thinking I should say something to him.......but as I roll out and clear the runway, I call tower and clear, the Grumman pilot calls for his Special and takeoff clearance.

Short pause, and Tower comes back with “Unable SVFR, weather is reporting 500 overcast, visibility less than 1/4 mile. Say intentions”. He opted to return to parking.

After I got the plane parked and secured, and drove home, via a local “emporium” where I guzzled a couple drinks, I realized that the tower controller had been “helping me” get home, and fudging on the weather reports to facilitate that.

So, after the controller was off shift, I called them at home and said thanks very much, but next time, I’ll land at Municipal strip and walk to my house. The controller was somewhat contrite, and I made it clear that it was my decision to go to ADQ, so no worries....but let’s not do me any favors in future.

MTV

mtv wrote:ATC is ATC. They cannot issue a SVFR in cipontrolled airspace when conditions are REPORTED below Basic VFR.


MTV

You're close. It's a surface area which is why you need a SVFR to depart when the primary airport is below VFR minimums. When the primary airport falls below VFR mins the airspace(surface area) reverts to the control of the radar facility that owns that airspace, that might be Center, it might be a nearby approach control. They are the ones who will issue the SVFR clearance. A SVFR can be issued for anywhere in the surface area and is only valid while within the confines of the surface area when ever the official weather is reporting 1 mile or more. Since it's a surface area it will have official weather at the primary airport. PIREP's are irrelevant here.
If the primary airport is IFR but where you want to take off or land within the surface area is severe clear you still must have a SVFR clearance to legally do it. If the primary airport is reporting less than a mile, thus negating the SVFR option, then even in severe clear where you are you cannot legally land/take off.

Here's a question re operating in class E airspace when the airport is reporting IFR but you're in VMC.
Please explain 91.155 (c):

(c) Except as provided in § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.

IMHO if they intended no VFR flight without a "special" (which is addressed by 91.157),
they would have said no flight under VFR, instead of the "beneath the ceiling under VFR" phrasing.
Seems like you could interpret that to mean that I can fly if the sky is clear where I am,
regardless of what the primary airport wx is reported as.
Or interpret it as I can fly if I am above the ceiling reported at the primary airport.

Not trying to be argumentative, just curious about this.
Here in western WA, I've seen plenty of occasions where the airport is socked in but just a milem or two away it's severe clear.

I'm also curious if a SVFR clearance can be granted if you're just trying to transit the controlled airspace,
as opposed to being inbound to land at the primary airport.