What are the profitable aircraft that are being used by 135 operators for backcountry operations?

Is it still Super Cub, C180/185, Beaver, 206, Cherokee 6, Caravan?

I guess another way to ask this question is what aircraft haul the most weight per gallon burned?

TIA,

-Todd Giencke

Out of curiosity where does a Maule fit in there, or does it? I would have thought that they would haul almost as much as a 180, but be a lot cheaper to buy. Not wanting this to turn into a what's better debate, but what can you make the most money with. I'd be flying a 185 instead of my Maule, just my wallet would be way overgrossed trying to support a 185

I don't want this to get into a who's better debate either.
I was just wondering what people were making money with.

-Todd Giencke

I think that what you will find is that most of the backcountry 135 ops are using a Cessna U206 either turbo or non. At least in Idaho.

tgiencke wrote:What are the profitable aircraft that are being used by 135 operators for backcountry operations?

Is it still Super Cub, C180/185, Beaver, 206, Cherokee 6, Caravan?

Yes

Some folks are flying Maules too though. There is at least one outfit in Talkeetna who has them on floats for camp support and sightseeing.

The Cherokee Six is an unappreciated backcountry hauler. I've been impressed by its utility, seems like you could cram a piano in the thing! Too bad it's low wing

OBTW not necessarily just "super" cubs. A lot of 150 and 160 horse cubs with fixed props out there working every day.

That question is way too broad to be answered easily.

What's the mission? You just stated FAR 135 ops.

Nobody makes any money with a Super Cub (and once and futr--ALL Super Cubs came with a 150 and fixed pitch originally) hauling stuff.

Now, during the hunting seasons, you can make some money that way, but you need some way to make the plane pay the rest of the 10 or so months of the year.

There are a lot of Cessna Caravans operating nowadays. They can haul more Pampers and beer to the villages than anything else per fuel dollar spent.

A 206 is a great working airplane. A halfway light one can haul a huge load, and great doors. Same for the Cherokee 6/Saratoga series.

The all time load carryer for all round work is the Beaver still. It can work hard on floats, skis, wheels, can haul nearly 2000 pounds with the newer mods, and its bomb proof. Put 55 gallon drums in the back?? No problem. But, they're getting expensive, cause they're now being prettied up for rich boy's toys.

Air taxi folks for the most part don't fly new equipment, though there are a few exceptions.

In Alaska, I think the 206, 207, Cherokee 6 derivitives and the Navajo Chieftan haul more stuff to more places than everything else put together, till you get to DC 6.

As to the Maule, there are a couple hauling hunters I know of in Alaska. Useful load isn't big enough with enough gas to go anywhere to make them a real practical Air Taxi airplane, and the fact that you rarely see them in that mode verifies that.

Not trying to start a fight, just look at the number of 135 operators operating what. You won't find many Maules, OR Cubs, for that matter.

Most of the Cub 135 airplanes are being used for wildlife survey work, which is specialized. There are also Scouts and Huskys doing that work under 135. The number of these around is fairly small, though, since the demand isn't that huge.

MTV

You would probably see a lot more Cessna 140's being used in part 135 if it wasn't too much airplane for the average pilot to handle...

The Maule is pretty under rated but I know of at least 5 135 ops that use primaryally(sp) Maule, the only other aircraft that they have is a 206 and I know of at least 1 other that has switched from Cubs to Husky's and now to Maules so like it has been said many times before "Depends on the Mission"

How about that new GA8 Airvan, mfr'd by Gippsland Aeronautics of Australia? Does anyone know of any of those that are being operated commercially yet? Soundss like a pretty good airplane- seats 8, IO-540 power, 40'-9" wingspan with 208 sq ft of area, 2200# empty/ 4000# gross, quick-change from freighter to pax configuration.
www.gippsaero.com
They also mfr an ag-plane, the GA-200 "Fatman".

Eric

zero.one.victor wrote:How about that new GA8 Airvan, mfr'd by Gippsland Aeronautics of Australia? Does anyone know of any of those that are being operated commercially yet? Eric

Eric,
They are using some in New Zealand on Part 135 ops. They seem like a pretty good aircraft, and with a practical door arrangement.

For Idaho backcountry, it's tough to beat a turbo'd 206. They handle huge loads and tough density altitudes.

We had a cub for several years, but you just can't put enough into them, and they're slow, to really make them work for you most of the year - hunting season being the exception.

We have a 185 that works great.

Not on the list, but are prevelant back here are Brittan Normen Islanders. There are 5 running around the Frank Chruch Wilderness area. They'll haul a load and can get in and out of most strips a 206 can. We'd like to buy another Islander, anybody know of one for sale?

We're looking at the AirVan, but I think we're waiting for the turbo'd model that is due out this year. In the summer river freight season, DA's can easily reach 10,000 out of Stanley, and we're running full gross out of there.

JOhn

And, that's the problem with the Air Van. I flew it, and thought it was a great handling, and well thought out design, except for one thing: Not enough power for the weight.

300 hp just isn't enough grunt for a 4000 pound AUW airplane, unless you have a LOT of pavement.

Now if there were a 400 hp small engine that'd work....but that's the problem with a lot of "great idea" airplanes that have come along--no motor for the size of airplane. And, nobody's making new motors of different sizes. The Sherpa is another example. Would be a great airplane, but that boat anchor IO=720 just wasnt' the ticket.

Low and Slow--Why isn't anyone in that country using Beavers for that work?? On wheels, with the modified machine you'd have at least a 2,000 pound useful load, supercharged, so DA is less of a problem, big doors, flat floors.....Seems like a match made in heaven to me.

And, even though prices of refurbished Beavers have gone up substantially, a good, like new one still costs less than an Air Van new, I'd bet.

MTV

I would have to look into the numbers but I think the AirVan would be a good plane with the Rolls-Royce (Allison) 250 (450shp) turboprop engine. That is if it can haul enough fuel.

-Todd Giencke

Low&Slow wrote:For Idaho backcountry, it's tough to beat a turbo'd 206. They handle huge loads and tough density altitudes.

We had a cub for several years, but you just can't put enough into them, and they're slow, to really make them work for you most of the year - hunting season being the exception.

We have a 185 that works great.

Not on the list, but are prevelant back here are Brittan Normen Islanders. There are 5 running around the Frank Chruch Wilderness area. They'll haul a load and can get in and out of most strips a 206 can. We'd like to buy another Islander, anybody know of one for sale?

We're looking at the AirVan, but I think we're waiting for the turbo'd model that is due out this year. In the summer river freight season, DA's can easily reach 10,000 out of Stanley, and we're running full gross out of there.

JOhn

Have you looked at these? We're taking delivery on one at work later this summer, to replace an aging 185:

http://www.foundair.com/

Edit: well, i guess they aren't the best for high DA situations, but some rave about 'em.

Nope, The Air Van with an Allison won't work, doesn't have enough fuel (87gal).

-Todd Giencke

A Bell 206 will fly 2.5 hours with reserve on 71.5 gl and that Allison. Although I remember 420 hp, but maybe they make more power in an airplane. It is a good engine though.

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:

Low&Slow wrote:Have you looked at these? We're taking delivery on one at work later this summer, to replace an aging 185:

http://www.foundair.com/

Edit: well, i guess they aren't the best for high DA situations, but some rave about 'em.

They're a good looking airplane, and a couple are based here and flown privately. I think they could probably do the job of a 185. I don't think they're turbo charged though, and unfortunately, I think that's a deal breaker for summer ops. We run out of Stanley all summer, with a field elevation of about 6,000, and temps into the low 90s on some days, density altitude can really bite you.

MTV - I don't know why Beavers don't work much here. I don't know enough about them, but all I've heard from other local pilots is negative. Perhaps they don't do well off of short strips when it's hot. There was a guy running a pair out of Challis years ago I believe, and he wrecked them both. But they have a useful load about like we have in the Islanders. I think the bennefit with them is they're long, we can fit 16' boards inside.

John

What do you guys think of the Quest Kodiak? http://questaircraft.com/ Maybe it's a little early to tell since they haven't gottne it certified yet, but it seems like it should do a decent job.

I'm interested in the Kodiak. They've done a lot of testing, and it seems to preform. I think it's a little bit expensive, but I'm happy to see an aircraft specificly designed for working the backcountry flying, not just playing.

The Found is out of production at present. They are supposedly "reorganizing" and going to a different engine (more power-sound familiar?) and building a tri gear version as well.

That airplane has a DC-4 airfoil wing on it. Think about it.

As to the Kodiak, I think it will be a world beater, but it's a million bucks to start. Not many air taxi folks can shuck out that kind of money for a back country airplane.

The Airvan is flying with the little Allison or whatever they call em now. Gas is always the issue with turbines, though I seem to remember getting the fuel flow to around 26 to 28 gph on a Soloy 206, but its been a while--still a lot of gas, depending on where you fly.

MTV