No, when he made that statement, he was in the hospital, having had his chimes rung pretty hard by the front seatback.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the accident record is littered with tragedies caused largely by people who were wearing conventional harnesses, but were not wearing them snug. Try wearing a conventional shoulder harness really snug for a couple of hours sometime, and perhaps we'll all see why inertial reel harnesses were invented. Many of the military harnesses for years had a locking mechanism, where you could either release the lock, and the harnesses would reel in and out (but with no inertial stop capability) for comfort in flight, but the harness could then be locked for takeoff, landings, or emergencies. These recognized that wearing shoulder harnesses snugly throughout a flight was unlikely, and failure to tighten them up for critical evolutions could cost lives.

A good friend of mine died in a Super Cub accident while wearing fixed shoulder harnesses. I really don't know how snug the harnesses were at the time of the accident, but his torso and head moved far enough forward that his face hit the GPS mounted on the instrument panel.

I don't like portable GPS units mounted anywhere my face might find them either. Something to think about for those folks that have those things stuck everywhere in the cockpit.

MTV

I plan on getting Inertia reel belts fo the Cherokee. I don't mind fixed ones but on the Old PA-28, not only can I not reach the flap hande, but I can't reach the brake handle without leaning forward. ( I doubt easy-flap has a fix for that). OK I could put toe brakes and an ez flap but will I ? Probably not. Path of least resistance.

EZFlap wrote:....
Your post mentions that Mr. Imeson (a very highly experienced back country pilot) admitted that he had his harness loosened. Do you have any additional information as to why that was ?

It may be that he didn't have an "EZ-radio-tune", an "EZ-open-air-vent", an "EZ-scan-for-traffic", an "EZ-grab-the-chart",an "EZ-reach-the-water-bottle", or any of the many other EZ devices you'd need if you kept your shoulder harnesses tight all the time. I've tried both & much prefer an inertia reel.
Maybe you could let this issue go for a change?

Long ago I flew a couple of different military aircraft that had a "lockable" harness. In the normal position, you could bend forward and reach all of the controls. By reaching down and positioning a lever on the left side of the seat, you could lock the harness in place and you weren't going anywhere. I always thought this was a far superior system to either fixed harnesses, which are either worn too loose to do any good or not worn at all, or inertia reels that can and do fail. Is anyone aware of such a system for general aviation aircraft?

Best,
O-2

OscarDeuce wrote:Long ago I flew a couple of different military aircraft that had a "lockable" harness. In the normal position, you could bend forward and reach all of the controls. By reaching down and positioning a lever on the left side of the seat, you could lock the harness in place and you weren't going anywhere. I always thought this was a far superior system to either fixed harnesses, which are either worn too loose to do any good or not worn at all, or inertia reels that can and do fail. Is anyone aware of such a system for general aviation aircraft?

Best,
O-2

Oops...didn't read MTV's last post before I wrote this...

Best,
O-2

mtv wrote:No, when he made that statement, he was in the hospital, having had his chimes rung pretty hard by the front seatback.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the accident record is littered with tragedies caused largely by people who were wearing conventional harnesses, but were not wearing them snug. Try wearing a conventional shoulder harness really snug for a couple of hours sometime, and perhaps we'll all see why inertial reel harnesses were invented. Many of the military harnesses for years had a locking mechanism, where you could either release the lock, and the harnesses would reel in and out (but with no inertial stop capability) for comfort in flight, but the harness could then be locked for takeoff, landings, or emergencies. These recognized that wearing shoulder harnesses snugly throughout a flight was unlikely, and failure to tighten them up for critical evolutions could cost lives.

A good friend of mine died in a Super Cub accident while wearing fixed shoulder harnesses. I really don't know how snug the harnesses were at the time of the accident, but his torso and head moved far enough forward that his face hit the GPS mounted on the instrument panel.

I don't like portable GPS units mounted anywhere my face might find them either. Something to think about for those folks that have those things stuck everywhere in the cockpit.

MTV

MTV - do you know what the typical labor in hours required to install the BAS units? I have just the original equipment lap belts in my 1968 Cherokee 180, and was thinking of getting fixed three point shoulder belts, but the more I think about it, and having read your posts, I'm thinking of springing for the extra cost (about double) of the BAS harnesses.

Also - What do you think of the rotary version closure vs. the standard version of the BAS harness? Is it worth the $350 extra?

Duane

Duane,

Not sure of the cost to install. It's pretty straightforward, though. Lap belts attach to conventional attach points. The reels are attached to the main spar carrythrough via throughbolts, so holes have to be drilled in that area, and a doubler placed. I doubt the whole thing takes more than four hours, but....I am NOT a mechanic.

As to the standard vs the rotary, I REALLY like the standard belt system. One of the things I like about it is you never have stray belt ends floating around in (and outside) the cockpit. Passengers adapt to those very quickly, and they are much easier to fasten quickly and correctly.

The four belt system was supposedly designed for seaplane use, where the concern is that someone might get hung up in the standard harness system. I've flown seaplanes with both systems, and I still prefer the standard system. I really don't think there's significantly more risk of getting tangled up with that system in the event of an accident.

MTV

Duane,
I installed my harnesses (under my IA's supervision, of course) in a little under 3 hours. It will probably take longer though as I was also changing out the headliner. I have not yet replaced the headliner, which is a pain in the butt. The BAS harnesses are very strait forward to install. Standard belt system.

hotrod150 wrote:
Maybe you could let this issue go for a change?

Y'know, if I had invented a cure for Cancer, there would still be people who would disagree with whatever I did or said, or chastised me for bringing it up tangentially to any other conversation. That's what I've learned from trying to make my way in the world through aviation.

It had not been my intention to promote a commercial product on this thread. In fairness please at least equally chastise the people who are promoting a certain other product, by name, as if they are a retail reseller.

My attempted humor regarding comparisons of the locations of certain controls in a cockpit (of aircraft versus automobiles) was made as a retort for someone addressing another subject.

Sorry to have offended your sensibilities so badly.

Hooker harness has a couple of lockable reels listed in their system, one is manual and one is electric to realease and i believe they both incorperate inertia funtion as well.

MTV & flyn,

Thanks for your responses. I emailed Jim Mettler at BAS with the same question (install labor estimate) and he came back with 5 hours, which seems pretty close to your effort, flyn

I'm leaning toward doing this install with my AI and his sheetmetal guy, soon as my '68 Cherokee 180 gets out of annual (hopefully by this weekend).

Duane

nmflyguy wrote:MTV & flyn,

Thanks for your responses. I emailed Jim Mettler at BAS with the same question (install labor estimate) and he came back with 5 hours, which seems pretty close to your effort, flyn

I'm leaning toward doing this install with my AI and his sheetmetal guy, soon as my '68 Cherokee 180 gets out of annual (hopefully by this weekend).

Duane

Just placed my order for the BAS restraints in the front seats ($1,215 for gray belts, utility closure), after my mechanic quoted me $200 for the install. It's not cheap, but what's a life (or two) worth, should they ever be needed?

Thanks, MTV and flyn for your input! Hope they're never needed (obviously), but I'll feel a lot better with'em installed in my Cherokee.

Duane

Duane,

You are exactly correct about priorities. You only have to USE those harnesses once or have a passenger USE them once to make discussions of cost irrelevant. I failed to mention that right after I parked that 185 in the mountains, I also installed BAS harnesses in my own airplane as well. Paid the bill happily, and haven't had to actually USE them since. They are great insurance, though.

Fly safe, and I too hope you'll never really NEED those harnesses.

MTV

nmflyguy wrote:
Just placed my order for the BAS restraints in the front seats ($1,215 for gray belts, utility closure), after my mechanic quoted me $200 for the install. It's not cheap, but what's a life (or two) worth, should they ever be needed?

Thanks, MTV and flyn for your input! Hope they're never needed (obviously), but I'll feel a lot better with'em installed in my Cherokee.

Duane

Just had the BAS installed in my Bo. I hate the utility buckle but it has the advantage of being able to be moved out of the way on the passenger side. So I got one of each. The utility buckle for the passenger and the standard buckle for me. My install cost was $520.