The corollary to my long-winded anecdote is the piece of advice that my mechanic gave me after I got my plane, "Pay me now or pay me later". A good deal now will surely cost you more money down the road. Not that the plane you are looking at necessarily qualifies, but something to keep in mind.

My story is just an echo of Vick's. An annual performed by the seller's camp is worthless to you, you need an objective 3rd party to do an annual.

I actually did send my own IA, who was a broker and had lined up the financing for me. As I learned later, his objectives weren't quite in line with mine. It was in his best interest to have the sale go through, so he overlooked a lot of things that either would have been deal breakers for me, or gotten me a substantial discount.

My plane also had been maintained by the same A&P IA for years, and as the owner was quite frugal, I think it was neglected somewhat. The A&P's work also went unaccounted for for many years, because, hey -- he's the IA too!

So I've had a project plane for the last few years, but as a result I've personally been elbow deep in every nook and cranny of the thing. It's a nice flyer now. If I could do it over again I would have been nmore thorough on the pre-buy.

Well at least on the upside I know the plane has been flown as recently as July. The annual expired at the end of July and he was waiting to do a fresh annual with the sale since he knew the buyer would want one anyway. Also someone used it around that time to get their tailwheel endorsement. At least it sounds like it's been a flyer and not a mouse nest barn queen.
I'll also get a day or two to test fly it before it ever leaves his house. The owner's flight instructor friend (who also has 2 or 3 Stinsons) is going to give me a full check-out before the scheduled flight home, so I should be able to detect and address any glaring problems at that time as well.
I just hope I get the hang of the thing pretty readily and feel safe flying and landing it. It will be a long unfamiliar trip so any extra beads of sweat I can eliminate will be nice.

zane wrote:My story is just an echo of Vick's. An annual performed by the seller's camp is worthless to you, you need an objective 3rd party to do an annual.

I actually did send my own IA, who was a broker and had lined up the financing for me. As I learned later, his objectives weren't quite in line with mine. It was in his best interest to have the sale go through, so he overlooked a lot of things

So I've had a project plane for the last few years, but as a result I've personally been elbow deep in every nook and cranny of the thing. It's a nice flyer now. If I could do it over again I would have been nmore thorough on the pre-buy.

Zane

Please dont be to quck to condem annuals by the sellers camp. What you went through was huge aircraft learning experiance.

Many of us have been there done that.

One should never even look at an airplane before thoroughly looking at the logs.
I have walked on many a deals after spending a couple hours reading the log books.

If they just have annuals signed off and no maintenance in between or very little they should be suspect.

You can be guaranteed if one guy always does it, he probably always over looks the same thing.

What you as an owner should strive for is to know about each and every squawk your bird has, and not depend on someone else pointing it out to you.

Unfortunately my friend that only comes with time and money

At some point you will no doubt have your bird pristine, and when that happens you wont want some stranger opening it up with a screw gun

You will want your camp to show how nice it really is.

Mr Scout, you're contradicting a lot of people more experienced in buying and selling than me.

I agree, review of the logbooks is critical, but that's only part of the story. The logbooks are my plane were very complete, and indicated a dutiful maintenance regimen for each annual.

If I'm the buyer and the seller refuses to let me peform an annual using my mechanic, they've got something to hide, or they don't want to sell very badly.

Anyone willing to spend the money on an annual is probably a serious buyer and if I'm the seller, they can do whatever due diligence sets their mind at ease.

In my case the logs looked pretty good too - lesson learned there is that the ink is only as good as the guy who wrote it.

I agree with Zane on the pre-buy issue. If I were selling my plane I would welcome a 3rd party mech to go through it (in the presence of my own mech to ensure he didn't goon anything up) and if I met a seller that wouldn't allow me that opportunity I would walk away.

Vick wrote:In my case the logs looked pretty good too - lesson learned there is that the ink is only as good as the guy who wrote it.

I agree with Zane on the pre-buy issue. If I were selling my plane I would welcome a 3rd party mech to go through it (in the presence of my own mech to ensure he didn't goon anything up) and if I met a seller that wouldn't allow me that opportunity I would walk away.

Don't walk RUN what I mean by reading the logs is you get a feel for how Honest the owner is.

The logbooks are the responsibility of the owner not the mechanic signing them.

I can learn more reading your log books for and hour, and asking you questions than I am going to learn looking at your plane.

Once you and your books pass then we get out the screwdrivers and mirrors.

If that part requires you use a third party then so be it.

There are a lot of chumps out there trying to sell airplanes

And some very outstanding folks as well, I will only buy from the latter.

Every plane I have ever sold I have up front told the potential buyer if they find anything that affects airworthiness it will be taken care of no questions asked period. No haggling or whining allowed.

My dad use to tell me if you buy junk, you have junk all your life.

Life if far to precious to sell someone a POS that could hurt or kill them
They can do that on there own without my help.

Yeah I've left myself a couple options if I decide I don't feel comfortable flying it home. Return one-way tickets are fairly cheap from there so we can always buy them on short notice if need be. The owner also offered to fly the plane down himself for gas and a plane ticket home. The benefit of going up there is being able to get checked out by an instructor that is intimately familiar with that particular plane as well as Stinsons in general. Plus a nice cross-country flight home is a nice way to get acquainted with the plane and build experience. Much nicer than 2 hours worth of touch-and-goes in a local pattern.

I do expect some repairs and expense with a 60 year old plane and that's OK. I can sure spend a whole lot more and still not even be at the price of even a 172 in decent shape let alone a 182. In some ways it will be part of the fun of the ownership experience. There are some things that I know for sure I will want to work on, at least eventually. Updating the panel is one of them. I wouldn't mind keeping a vintage looking panel, but putting more modern instruments and avionics in it.

Trust me, if it is a good 108 you will love the plane. They fly nice, not fast, but fast enough, with a very good usable load.

I have been all the way through a few of these planes and there is a very loyal group to them as well, as you have found with the yahoo group.

Enjoy.

skycop wrote:Thanks Vick, actually I have read your story and was wondering about the whole fuel thing. Why does the engine so much prefer mogas over 100LL? What problem does the 100LL cause in the Franklin that does not occur in other engines? The owner says he always tried to burn mogas when possible, but obviously mogas isn't always available at airports and if you're flying cross-country 100LL is it. Other than some plug fouling, he didn't mention any other issues with 100LL. He also explained to me a little test he does to check if the fuel is an alcohol blend or not. He hasn't burned any of that (ethanol) in it, but if that's what is available, is it to be totally avoided or can it be used? I'm not sure anything but ethanol is available here, especially in the winter for pollution reasons. Unless I can get gas from some specialty cardlock place.
So what it boils down to is that I might be stuck with 100LL most of the time. That being the case, what does the TCP you mentioned do to help?
Pardon my ignorance of the subject but everything I typically fly in burns either Jet A or 100LL so this is new territory from me and I'm happy to learn from those who have "been there, done that".
I'm also going to have to check out the Stinson groups you mentioned. I've looked over the Stinson club website but I won't join until it's a done deal and I've got a Stinson parked at home
I'll be hopping onto the Yahoo group for sure now!

Skycop, I don't think that anyone mentioned this in this in the thread so far in response to your 100LL question, but the #1 reason why it is bad for 150 & 165 HP Franklins is that they use REJ38 spark plugs which have an extremely narrow gap. They foul up in no time with 100LL.

When I can't use autogas (which is more frequently now that they're putting that nasty ethanol in everything) and have to run 100LL, I MUST use TCP in my Stinson, otherwise it will start running rough in as little as one tank of gas!

Lead build on the valves and valve steams which causes valve sticking is also a major problem. The valves can be staked and the plugs cleaned, but using the scavenger really helps.

Leaning both on deck (mixture to full rich prior to runups!) and in flight will alleviate any plug fouling issue. As Higgy mentioned, the #1 concern is the residual lead collecting on the valve and guide which will produce a stuck valve in short order. Often if I haven't leaned enough after a long taxi or warmup - and this can happen with mogas as well - I get an unsatisfactory mag check on the runup. A brief tug on the mixture can burn off that fouling and the subsequent mag check will be good. For a description of what a stuck valve on a Franklin can get you see my prior posts.

I just purchased my 108-3. I bought it local from somewhat of a quasi friend and skipped the pre-buy. Now I did get a nice plane at a pretty sweet deal, but I probably could have saved my self a few grand in the cylinder and piston I had to redo, and a number of other small issues. Now that I have my stinson up and running I love. The plane flied great, is an easier taildragger and is really quite capable. It is a great 2 person plane that can seat four. I have some Edo 2425 and am in the middle of purchasing some Federal skis. Hope you get and love your stinson ! I know I do. And the Franklin Engine is very nice as long as you are nice to it ! Good Luck

Mike

48 Stinson 108-3

Congrats on your -3 Snail! You have a laundry list of things of which I'm envious:

2400 lb GW
50 gal/fuel
2425s!
Skis

Awesome, enjoy the whole package. Be sure to check in on the Yahoo Stinson group as well if you haven't already done so.

Well kinda delayed, but I'm back in AZ and my new 108-3 is nestled snugly in her new hangar.
Flew in on a thursday night and spent the night at my wife's parents' house. The owner and his friend/neighbor/CFI flew in to Auburn Friday morning to meet me and I got my first Stinson time flying it back to Wilton. We dropped the owner off and did a couple hours of dual and a few solo take-offs and landings. Spent some time looking through the logs and various manuals and spent the night in the owner's RV which he so kindly offered up. Back up in the AM on Saturday for a little more dual. I was hoping for a little crosswind training but the wind didn't cooperate. Took care of the payment, bill of sale, took a couple photos together, and I struck off on my own to find Auburn muni and meet back up with my wife and her family. Halfway back I encountered the beginnings of some rain that was rolling in. I spent Saturday night with them and it continued to pour rain all night long and into Sunday. We were to leave on Sunday morning to fly back to AZ but I couldn't even see the mountain 2 miles from their back yard with all the low clouds. So we spent an extra day visiting and left Monday morning. 55 degrees and sprinkling, but high clouds and good vis. First flew over to Sac Executive to buy some TCP from Sac Sky Ranch. On the way there my airspeed indicator was acting silly. I really wished I was going 140 mph but I knew I wasn't. And when it indicated 0 I knew I wasn't hovering either. So after a quick phone call asking about the pitot-static drains, I made a quick stop back at the previous owner's place where he blew out the lines for me. I guess that was to be expected with the poor girl being tied down outside in a pouring rain all night for the first time in at least 30 years.
Wheels up again bound for Porterville for some lunch and gas. Airspeed indicated A-OK. After Porterville, headed through the Banning pass, made a quick stop in San Bernadino where I left a small puddle on the ramp because I couldn't find anything that looked like an FBO with a bathroom.
Headed back out and by this time I was pretty sure there was no way we were getting back home (or at least thru the mountains) by nightfall.
Plopped it into Palm Springs Intl and the nice folks at Signature got us a room at a very nice hotel for a very good rate. It was expensive to tie down and get fuel at Signature, but the hotel arrangement made up for it. If you ever get to Palm Springs, check out Hotel Zoso. Right in the middle of the action and very upscale. I think it's normally lke $249 a night, but they got us in there for $89. Almost made up the difference with a couple of $11 Mojitos at the bar, but I digress...
Headed for home Tuesday morning. Overflew Blythe going for a non-stop, but I caved in to the urgings of my bladder again and had to make a pitstop in Buckeye. After that, a short easy flight over familiar Phoenix territory to my house in Queen Creek.
Overall the plane ran and flew great. Trouble free except for the water in the pitot-static system. Cruise speed and climb is sloooow but that's no surprise from what I've read, especially since it's still got 3 big Venturis hanging off the side. Might have to throw a 220 Franklin or an O-470 in there at TBO time though...
On a seperate note, the Lowrance Airmap 600C I bought for the trip worked flawlessly. It's a fantastic bang for the buck and and didn't have any of the problems I read about in some early reviews. Maybe they've gotten the bugs worked out of the software in recent revisions. The RAM yoke mount included with the unit attached the unit perfectly to the Stinson yoke in the perfect spot. Couldn't be happier with it.
So now I've got about 14 hours logged in N6381M and am looking forward to many more.

Congrats on getting it home, hope it serves you well! Picking up a new plane seems like it's always an adventure.

Regarding the water in the pitot-static lines, if my plane even smells rain I have to blow the lines out. I've flown through light precip in flight and not had a problem, but on deck water gets in there every time. I was concerned initially but so many others report the same I chalked it up to the design.

Before I ripped the venturi-powered vacuum system out of my 170, it had a little plastic bottle attached to the plumbing. My guess is that it gave the water a place to go instead of the lines/instruments. Never had a water in the lines problem.

Skylane wrote:Congrates Skycop. Never personally flown a Stinson, but have always heard good things about them. Simple and straight forward airplane. I have 2 friends that fly Stinsons with the Franklin engine and never heard one complaint.

Looking forward to some stories and pictures.

Fly safe Bub

Well now I have to correct this post. Flew a Stinson with a 150 Franklin in it today. Nice well mannerd bird, smooth running engine. Slow in roll and touchy on the rudder. I had the ball stomped in the corner a couple of times A&P felt sorry for me since the 182 has been down for a month or better, and we went out for a flying fix.

Fly safe, Bub

When you fly a Stinson you need to plan extra time for your flights. Wherever you land you will have folks stop by and tell you their Stinson story. Congratulations on your purchase.

Sounds like you got Gene H. plane,if you did,it is a very nice plane.Its been in the norcal area for a very long time and well takin care of. Enjoy.C