Got a call yesterday from the local Sheriffs Office, and they asked me if there was a hot springs at the airport. I said "no, why?" They said that they had a "medical alert" going off about 10 miles from Peterson Station and it looked to be by a hot springs. They also told me that they had no officer on duty, and no one was available to drive the ambulance, and if I knew where Peterson Station or the hot spring was, and I would drive out there to see what's up. They also gave me a Township and Range coordinate.

I knew where the hot springs were, and knew that Peterson Station was a name not used for 40 years, for a ranch there. I drove out there to find a powered parachute pilot had experienced an engine failure, and had very badly, broken his leg during an otherwise uneventful landing. He was unable to even exit the craft.

I called the S.O. back and canceled the 911 alert he had pressed with his SPOT personal locator, loaded him up and took him to his camp about 8 miles north, calmed down his wife a bit, who couldn't find him with the coordinates Spot had sent her, because she was unfamiliar with the GPS, helped load him into her truck, then went back with his trailer to retrieve his Powered Chute, while he was off to the Dr. in Fallon.

I was just wondering about a couple of things... He said he had pressed the SPOT 911 button about 2 hrs and 40 min. before I arrived. (I got there about 40 min. from my call). What if I hadn't know where the hot springs were? Would a deputy have recognized that 40 year old name, if he was on duty? What about how to find him with Township and Range. (I guess I probably could have eventually figured it out.) What if it had of been a 8 hour hike into the place, instead of driving right to it? Does Spot wait awhile before calling the local S.O. or did the S.O. sit on it for awhile? I guess I kinda figured maybe help would have gotten there a little faster, but realistically, this is probably going to be more typical, or faster than what we should expect.

Just passing along a little info to think about. It really occured to me, that we fly in some really out of the way places, and even with this new technology, it may take quite a while for help to arrive, even after everyone knows where we are. I'm thinking that really, in most of the places, it will be at least a day or more. Austin doesn't have much in services, granted, but I'd be willing to bet we have a lot more than say Yellowpine, ID.

Just food for thought...

Oh, and the place where he had broken his leg was about 30 miles from the airport.....

Interesting post Joe, nice work in the rescue.

So does SPOT report the lat/long with its 911 alert, or not? I'm confused as to how the "Petersen Station" information was derived. I've been under the impression that the dispatch service who receives the 911 message from SPOT gets lat/long along with it.

Thanks for the info, Joe. First, I'm glad the guy was ok (besides a broken leg). But, what if it was a life and death situation? I would think that as soon as you hit the 911 button there would be an all out search for you. Where ever that signal goes to, say it goes to SPOT, they can then see from the GPS coordinates the signal is coming from a remote area and then they can dispatch a search and rescue team from the nearest town or city that has a helicopter or plane available. In this case, maybe a helicopter from Fallon NAS or CAP plane from Reno (or the nearest CAP base). But, maybe with SPOT being fairly new, maybe they can learn from this incident and improve on it. But also, atleast the guy was found before the coyotes got to him.

I'm keeping my ACR, for some reason I think they are taken more seriously. Good job helping the guy.

Joe,
I sent your story to SPOT for a reaction and to answer the questions.
My understanding is that if one sends a 911 the local authorities are notified. That seems to have happened. Although my impression was that coordinates are supposed to be given. The landmark may have been an extra or the Sheiff may have added that information. However it seems to me the Sheriff should have notified the CAP and the local military as well as you.
I'll let you know if or what SPOT's response is to the questions.
Bill

Why does that use range and township rather than lattitude, longitude? It would be better if it gave the information the same as the GPS coordinates.
We had a pilot crash in our location a few years back and they got a ELT signal when he crashed on a Friday afternoon. The notified parties sat on it until Saturday afternoon late and then notifieid the local sheriff. They went to find him early Sun. morning. I was upset over that one. I let several people know what I thought about that response. Why do we need an ELT? The pilot died instantly on this one but they didn't know that.

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:

58Skylane wrote:But, what if it was a life and death situation? I would think that as soon as you hit the 911 button there would be an all out search for you.

That would be nice, but the reality is you may still be a long time from being found.

I guess I understand now why the SPOT only cost $150.00 versus $600.00 for other PLB's. But, the tracking and ok features are cool!!

It will be really interesting to see what chain of events this episode went through.

If I understand the Spot correctly, it will send a 911 even if it can't get a gps reading. If the device ended up in a location that can't see the whole sky, the gps might not be able to get a fix even though the transmitter could send the 911 signal. Meanwhile, as the constellation of satellites is constantly changing, the gps might get a fix later. The PLB with gps would suffer the same problem. The PLBs, though, will get a triangulation without the gps, but will take some time in most cases.

No matter what you use for emergency notification, you should still have some emergency stuff in remote areas.

tom

Yea, I have had a lot of the same questions, but havn't taken the time to get ahold of SPOT or the S.O. to get them answered. I can't find the paper that I wrote down the Township and Range on, maybe it was Lat-Lon, but I do remember that I had only 4 numbers on each, where the Lat and Lon from a spot message has like 6 or 7. It did have a compass direction on each, like N, S, E, W, but I can't remember which.

I suspect they had a Lat Lon, and maybe converted it, or looked it up on a map or something?

Monday when I'm working, maybe I'll try to get a little more info.

I would be interested in the answers to the questions as listed in the thread as well.

But, having worked SAR in a large mostly rural county in AZ, 2 hrs. 40 minutes is not a bad response time given all the variables in many "backcountry" type rescue/recovery attempts. Even given the availability of air assets such as civilian EMS helos, and Public Safety Aircraft.

As I recall with the SPOT, you can program a message that is sent with the 911 button. You would want to use generic, current terms that would most likely be known today. Not, "Went flying near the "Ole Jones" ranch-and Jones hadn't lived there since 1972!

I know that this is terribly off topic, but....

Flew out to check on the powered parachute guy today, and ended up playin around the dry lake a little.

These two "Cattle Hangings" made me think that maybe they were strung up as "People Russlers".

I've seen those in your other photos, Joe. What's the purpose of that?

O.K.

Honestly...if I am down somewhere with a broken leg or worse....2:40 would seem like forever. But.....

....I rather like the notion that there are places, even in our nation, where one might be a few hours or even days from rescue. Isn't that part of what makes an adventure "adventurous"? I mean geezz...our ancestors were so far from potential rescue...yet they walked, rode mules, followed oxen into the "great beyond."

I dunno about you....but I'd like to think that I have retained 10% of the courage that my grandfather and his father had. Yeah I know...this is the "video age" many want to engage in only "virtual adventure." Me...I'll take a dose of reality and if I end up dead.....well.....at least I will have LIVED!

Otherwise.....why consider ourselves "BACKCOUNTY PILOTS."


Bob

z3skybolt wrote:O.K.

Honestly...if I am down somewhere with a broken leg or worse....2:40 would seem like forever. But.....

....I rather like the notion that there are places, even in our nation, where one might be a few hours or even days from rescue. Isn't that part of what makes an adventure "adventurous"? I mean geezz...our ancestors were so far from potential rescue...yet they walked, rode mules, followed oxen into the "great beyond."

I dunno about you....but I'd like to think that I have retained 10% of the courage that my grandfather and his father had. Yeah I know...this is the "video age" many want to engage in only "virtual adventure." Me...I'll take a dose of reality and if I end up dead.....well.....at least I will have LIVED!

Otherwise.....why consider ourselves "BACKCOUNTY PILOTS."


Bob

While I totally agree with your sentiments, I've also participated in enough SAR events that if I am going to get out of bed in the middle of the night in the middle of a storm, I'd just as soon know where I was supposed to go looking. The more precise the search area, the better it goes for all those generous-hearted volunteers like Coyote Ugly, who are donating their time and resources trying to help out. And the sooner they can get there, the fewer secondary complications they are likely to have to contend with, such as dehydration, hypothermia, diminished consciousness, or a person who has time to wander off on their own, thereby increasing the size of the search area dramatically.

Hey Joe,
I got a response from SPOT as follows:

Thank you for letting SPOT Customer Service know of your concerns. We are glad that the pilot was safely rescued.

The SPOT unit requires a direct line of sight to the satellites to be able to acquire a GPS fix and to send messages. Obstructions can interfere with the signal, delaying the message until a direct line of sight can be obtained, and sometimes the signal may bounce off certain surfaces resulting in a skewed GPS fix. Under optimal conditions (clear view of the sky from horizon to horizon), the co-ordinates provided by the SPOT device are accurate within 10 meters. Please also note that it is recommended that the SPOT unit be at least 12 inches away from other GPS equipment, as there can be interference among the devices.

When a SPOT user presses the 911 button, the device will immediate begin to send a 911 distress message every 5 minutes until the batteries are depleted or the 911 function is canceled. The 911 message is forwarded to a GEOS Alliance emergency control center as soon as it is received by one of our ground stations. GEOS will then in turn notify local authorities closest to the origin of the 911 signal. It is then up to the local authorities to begin search and rescue operations, and the efficiency of the rescue operation will rely on the resources at the disposal of the local authorities.

An additional GEOS rescue service, which provides a global private GEOS search and rescue benefit, can be purchased by SPOT users. The additional service provides up to $100,000 of additional search and rescue resources, including helicopter extraction around the world and reimbursement benefits for any emergency service expenses incurred. More information on this service can be obtained from GEOS at http://www.geosalliance.com/sar.

We hope to have addressed your concerns. Do not hesitate to contact us if you have further inquiries or concerns.

Kind regards,

It appears I was correct as far as GEOS contacting local authorities and relying on their expertise. GEOS also contacts the SPOT owners contacts listed by yourself. I believe this to be a very important point that one makes sure to have a dogged person who will follow up with the local authorities and CAP to assure everything is being done on a timely basis.
We might not be so lucky to have Joe ( Coyote Ugly) looking for us as a SAR. Also A64's point of having the ACR ,GPS is also not a bad idea if you are going to the back country. The additional services may be worth the fee but it may not guarantee and faster response.

denalipilot.

Thank you for your couragous dedication to saving lives. If I am ever in mortal danger....I'd want you to be looking for me.

On the other hand..... we live in a world where a "fender bender" results in the the 911 call out of law enforcement, an ambulance, fire truck and sometimes even a rescue helicopter. Folks get airlifted for broken bones. We worry about C-172s being used as "weapons of mass destruction." Let's not forget that we are all mortal. No one gets out of this world alive.

Take down the satellites, throw away the cell phones, dump the computers, do away with GPS. Golly....we are back to the 1980's. How the heck did we ever survive??

Bob

When a SPOT user presses the 911 button, the device will immediate begin to send a 911 distress message every 5 minutes until the batteries are depleted or the 911 function is canceled. The 911 message is forwarded to a GEOS Alliance emergency control center as soon as it is received by one of our ground stations. GEOS will then in turn notify local authorities closest to the origin of the 911 signal. It is then up to the local authorities to begin search and rescue operations, and the efficiency of the rescue operation will rely on the resources at the disposal of the local authorities.




The real question is how is the process different, if any, from an activated PLB, once the emergency signal is received?





As I recall with the SPOT, you can program a message that is sent with the 911 button.


No, you cannot with the 911 button. You can with the OK button and the Help button.

1SeventyZ wrote:I've seen those in your other photos, Joe. What's the purpose of that?

I think that they were put up by the land sailer guys, which has gotten popular on this dry lake at certain times of the year. I've heard that they have a "cow to cow" race on memorial day every year, it's quite a few miles between them, but they have been there for years.

On the SPOT deal, I think I remember that he had it in his lap, and I know that will cause problems with sending. In hindsight, I'd be willing to bet that was a big part of the lag.

It's still a great tool, I think, and I like it, but we should still be prepared for most anything when were "out there". No sense in trusting our lives to a computer chip huh?? A sleeping bag, some water and survival stuff doesn't weigh or cost that much, so ya can always pitch it out in a a pinch, but sure might come in handy if really needed.

Coyote Ugly wrote:

1SeventyZ wrote:I've seen those in your other photos, Joe. What's the purpose of that?

I think that they were put up by the land sailer guys, which has gotten popular on this dry lake at certain times of the year. I've heard that they have a "cow to cow" race on memorial day every year, it's quite a few miles between them, but they have been there for years.

On the SPOT deal, I think I remember that he had it in his lap, and I know that will cause problems with sending. In hindsight, I'd be willing to bet that was a big part of the lag.

It's still a great tool, I think, and I like it, but we should still be prepared for most anything when were "out there". No sense in trusting our lives to a computer chip huh?? A sleeping bag, some water and survival stuff doesn't weigh or cost that much, so ya can always pitch it out in a a pinch, but sure might come in handy if really needed.

The input regarding location of SPOT on lap makes sense. In addition your common sense judgement about SPOT just being another tool in our survival kit is "SPOT ON" the point. If anyone thinks Scotty is going to beam down with Bones within some subjective time frame is counter intuitive and excessive expectations. Be prepared for the worst and hope for the best but be independent in attitude to survivive. I've carried an Army survival knife through war and peace and never had to use it and my goal is to keep it that way. Just lucky I guess? although there were a few occasions where plain old stubbornness got me the help I needed

I'm sorry it took me so long to respond to this post but I wanted to have the facts before I did.

Coyote Ugly wrote:Got a call yesterday from the local Sheriffs Office, ...
They also told me that they had no officer on duty, and no one was available to drive the ambulance, and if I knew where Peterson Station or the hot spring was, and I would drive out there to see what's up.

Good job Coyote Ugly! I'm glad you were there. With no officer available and no one to drive the ambulance it sounds like they would have been in a world of hurt with out you!

Coyote Ugly wrote:I was just wondering about a couple of things...
What if I hadn't know where the hot springs were? Would a deputy have recognized that 40 year old name, if he was on duty? What about how to find him with Township and Range....Does Spot wait awhile before calling the local S.O. or did the S.O. sit on it for awhile?

I do not know when the injured person first pushed the 911 button on his SPOT but GEOS (the SPOT call center) received the first 911 message from the messenger at 1757 gmt which I believe would have been 10:57 am local time. Here is some more of the time-line.
10:58 GEOS called the first emergency contact phone number listed for the messenger but did not reach anyone
10:59 They called the second emergency number and left a voice mail
11:01 They called the third emergency number and reached a person. They collected as much information as possible that could be pertinent such as where the person was going, what they were doing, description of the person, pertinent medical history etc.
11:03 GEOS called the local sheriff dispatcher for the county where the distress call was coming from and gave all the collected information as well as the GPS coordinates to the dispatcher.

So within 6 minutes of receiving the distress call the appropriate responding agency had been notified of the emergency.

At 12:15 GEOS called the Sheriff department for an update and was told there was no update available yet.

At 12:49 GEOS called the Sheriff again and was told that the injured party had been picked up and was being transported in a private vehicle.

I do not know what happened between the time GEOS first alerted the Sheriff Department of the emergency and the time Coyote Ugly was notified. This would not be a normal situation for the Sheriff Department to deal with. More often dispatchers are given a street address or intersection for deputies to respond to. It probably took some time for the dispatcher to determine where the the GPS coordinates where as well as figure out the place names and township and range coordinates. It probably took some time to determine that there was no officer available and no one to drive the ambulance. Maybe it took some time to come up with the idea of calling Coyote Ugly.

Coyote Ugly wrote:It really occured to me, that we fly in some really out of the way places, and even with this new technology, it may take quite a while for help to arrive, even after everyone knows where we are. I'm thinking that really, in most of the places, it will be at least a day or more.

Excellent point. I have been on many SAR missions where even though we had well trained rescuers and knew the GPS location of the injured person it took many hours to get to them. If the weather or terrain prevents flying it can take a long time to hike to some locations. It is exactly the more rural and remote parts of our country that have the fewest resources to deal with emergencies like this. They just do not have the funds to keep a large well equipped rescue team on standby and instead rely on volunteers.

Another poster mentioned that a PLB may have gotten help quicker. I doubt it would have changed the time line very much. Instead of GEOS calling the Sheriff Dispatcher it would have been the AFRCC. Other than that it probably would not have been significantly different.

Thanks again to Coyote Ugly and all the other volunteers out there that help keep us safe!


Rob Hunter
Prepared Pilot