goldfinch wrote:I have not tried the imbedded thunderstorm route, but I have a hard time believing flat land turbulence can compare to hi gusty winds in really rough terrain like down in the Snake/Salmon river canyon or some of the mountain passes in Alaska with close side walls and lots of corners and high wind. You become more of a passenger than a pilot. Scares the crap out of me!

Hate to rain on your parade Goldfinch, the worst hammering I EVER got was downwind for runway 20 here at SNY after spending a day of relative calmness flying up and down the Front Range of Colorado and also up to Laramie WY Not a cloud in the sky, warm but not hot, ASOS said the winds were calm. Midfield, downwind at 1K AGL I got the thrashing of my life. It was like a giant had grabbled hold of my C-170 and just shook the crap out of it. It made noises I'd never heard it make before. I carefully did a 180 and flew out of it. Went to the west end of the field and tried an approach..got my ass kicked again!. I had made up my mind to head for STK and wait out this crap, but I waited about 15 minutes and tried it again. This time I approached 30 at about 300 ft AGL...flew in, no turb, easy landing. This happened to me about 14 years ago. It's something I've never forgotten and you can believe this comes to mind EVERY time I land the plane.
Something everyone may not know...in Colorado there are mountain top ASOS's..they can give you some idea as to what is going on up there. Never go up there if the winds are over 30 knots!
HC

Worst turbulence I ever experienced was flying 135 in Southeast Alaska last February. Had the longest sustained windstorm in the regions recorded history, 108kt winds recorded on sheep mountain. I saw 7 waterspouts in one day in the Lynn Canal and Icy Straight. I'm talking trouble maintaining a block altitude between 4 and 7 thousand, just riding nasty swells, on the power off the power, 180 degree wind sheer in excess of 40 kts. I had 2 passengers break down in tears and nobody puke ( they all said the same thing, "I was too scared to puke"). That kinda turbulence makes the airplane sound like a tin can your stepping on, makes for some interesting landings too. Tried to get into Hoonah with two crab fisherman, and after two attempts I went back to Juneau. After landing the guy in the back seat said "Man I sure am glad you didn't try a third time, I had the seat sucked so far up my @$S, I couldn't a been held liable for the upholstery!", needless to say nobody went to Hoonah that day. Cold wind blowing outta the interior, that's the worst in that area I would say, any kinda wind from the northeast. After the first week, nobody wanted to come to work, but we were all there. It was just miserable, I thought my teeth were gonna come out. As a matter of fact, I broke a crown a few weeks later, wonder if it had any relation?
The second worst turbulence I would say (clear air that is) would have to be Hawaii in the winter. When you can see the rip lines on the water, make sure you tighten your seat belt before you cross em, seen a few people put there heads in the ceiling on that one.
But thunderstorms in the Caribbean and Florida can get pretty freaking bad too, that's a different kind of turbulence though. Sometimes it'll just sneak up on you, get caught in one of those TS downdrafts in an under powered airplane and you'll think twice about trying to pick your way through without on board radar or wx again, I can attest to that. The thunderstorms in the Midwest don't seem to be as severe though, they seem to get taller and more powerful down south.
That's my two cents anyhow, take it for what its worth.

NimpoCub wrote:Due to a recent "Pancake landing" near here where the cause was reported as a downdraft (over fairly level ground) I've been wondering about the likelyhood of being forced right to the ground in a downdraft.

I remember (that happens sometimes) being taught that you can't power out of a downdraft, you haft'a TURN out of it, so hopefully you have some lower terrain to turn to. I'm very aware of mtn. waves, cold air sliding down hillsides, windshear (up higher) and that it's often bumpy near the surface due to thermal actions.

I do wonder if it's possible to hit a serious downdraft when flying over relatively level terrain??

Here's the thing about downdrafts, air doesn't go through the ground, but it sure as hell go's through trees!

HiCountry mentioned "the noise". Kind of like a cookie baking sheet being rattled? I've heard it 3 times, don't know what it could be on a tube and rag plane especially, (probably the leading edge wrap being flexed) not sure I want to know, but that's a pretty good indication of some bad air.

The bad air you know the reason for is one thing, the unexpected inexplicable stuff is the worse, especially when you also hear "the noise".

Plenty of pireps saying "I've experienced this/that" but no indication of what to look for or expect or anticipate some sort of turbulence ahead when over fairly level terrain. When in the mtns, I'm always thinking of what the air might be doing, but when over flatter ground, I get more complacent... following moose tracks.

If I'm flyin' along fat/dumb/happy @ 300' can I get slammed into the ground?? (or just get a big scare)

NimpoCub wrote:Plenty of pireps saying "I've experienced this/that" but no indication of what to look for or expect or anticipate some sort of turbulence ahead when over fairly level terrain. When in the mtns, I'm always thinking of what the air might be doing, but when over flatter ground, I get more complacent... following moose tracks.

If I'm flyin' along fat/dumb/happy @ 300' can I get slammed into the ground?? (or just get a big scare)

If your asking, I think they are called Microbursts...ask the folks at Dallas who landing in an L1011 a few years back!

Back in olden days the conditions weren't bad at the home field but as you got closer to the pass, the clouds became lower but not to low to get through, but the trees became bent over and the water on the lakes were not just showin sign of whitecaps, but it's blowin water clear up on the bank. The plane is being banged around so badly that you are going from stop to stop on the stick and not stopping the bank completely. You are close enough to the ground that there isn't much up and down cause any lower and you'd be in the trees. but now you have another problem, your cryin moma and want out but don't dare to try to turn the plane around cause the walls are too close and no tellin what would happen if you turned the wings 90 deg to the wind in that tight pass. I throttled back and flew the plane backwards down the canyon for about four miles till I got to the corner and only had to turn about 90 deg. to make my getaway. Went home, landed, winds calm, called in a pirep, called maintenance hanger in Anchorage and told them the plane would wait for some other day.

Remembering back in a different lifetime, there was this summer time flight in a C-130 in Germany. We were either on the way to or returning from Grafenwoehr and Rhein-Main Air base. The summer air was getting a little bumpy but not too bad. I don't think you could really call it turbulence. What makes this flight stick in my mind is what I observed as a 20' something Air Force firefighter.

I was on the flight deck listening to the headset and the Soviet voice on the other end. The flight crew told me they were talking about us.... (this was pre-Berlin Wall coming down, and we were near the Czech border). So as we start to get bounced around some, the co-pilot asked me to make my way back to the web-belt seat on the right side of the plane. 'Sure', I said. So I turned and started making my way down to the cargo bay. At about halfway down from the flight deck we hit a sudden down draft. Facing the back of the plane, my hands were already on the vertical rails so I didn't go flailing, other than my legs and feet sticking out in front of me.

Weightlessness, as short as it was, was a neat sensation. Kind of like when you let go of the rope swing as you reach the and of its arc and you fall gracefully into the warm river below.

That same loss of gravity also had an affect on our cargo.

What I vividly remember to this day is seeing a rather large Air Force P-4 crash truck come up-off the cargo bay floor, pull up snugly against the cross-braced chains trying to hold it down, and in one smooth motion the thing shifted over a couple of inches and then settled back down to the cargo bay.

I'm pretty sure no one else saw this. My Tech Sgt didn't like flying and had his head down in the bag when I got back to where he was.
For what its worth regarding turbulence, thats what I remember.

NimpoCub wrote:Plenty of pireps saying "I've experienced this/that" but no indication of what to look for or expect or anticipate some sort of turbulence ahead when over fairly level terrain. When in the mtns, I'm always thinking of what the air might be doing, but when over flatter ground, I get more complacent... following moose tracks.

If I'm flyin' along fat/dumb/happy @ 300' can I get slammed into the ground?? (or just get a big scare)

Air acts as a fluid, so you have to have some sort of catalyst to bring on that downdraft, besides that, air cant travel through the ground, so at the most extreme circumstance you might end up in ground effect (which could be bad). The risk with a micro burst is stalling the aircraft, because when you get the severe increase in indicated airspeed the natural response is to pull back the power and pitch the nose up, problem being that when you come through to the other side of the burst and the wind shears the other way you'll be in a stall already (real bad in a turbine with spool up lag). That being said, I've found the best method when landing in a micro burst is to keep the power in or slightly increase it when you see your airspeed shoot up, that way when you hit the shear on the back side all you have to do is lower the nose and you should be back on track. You'll know if micro bursts are in the area by the weather, i.e. severe thunderstorms, and most towered fields have wind shear monitoring equipment that can give you a heads up. You can usually tell by watching the clouds too, if your somewhere remote, just look at the thunderheads, the micro burst usually comes ahead of them, and forms a sort of rotor cloud below the front of the storm. The dry ones are hard to see though. I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as being put into the ground by turbulence or air currents in the flat lands.

Thank you Joe!
That was an answer, and gives me something to think about.
Answers are a GoodThing!

Just don't get caught in whatever causes this:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODF/TimberBlowdown.shtml

They are all over the west if you look close enough... I've come across them hunting - damn near impossible to cross on foot.

Check this possible rotor out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohnSesLjdmg

Not all that far from Steve Fosset's last flight...

NimpoCub
North of you a ways Say 1/3 the way from Burns Lake to Terrace there is a big bunch of trees that look like pickup sticks that all of them are pointed out!! This is almost a perfect circle and probably close to a 1/2 mile wide!!I have a picture somewhere of it but can not find it! Would not have like to have been anywhere close when what ever happened or hit the ground!!
One other time in the early 90's about mid December I was flying an E model Bo from Ketchican south, weather was clear for a 100 miles Big low in the gulf, high in the interior, cold!!
Around about Telkwa pass I started the up and down Shit!!made it to 16,000 at idle and 4000" at full power!!back and forth way to many times!!!Got to -30 and was -40 when we got to Quenel. Ex wife passed out one time going through 14.000 with the VSI pegged. Was never so damn scared in my life!!
The close second was going from Prince Rupert to Kitmet??(some dam IFR point don't really remember)Headed for Prince George and points south. This was in a 185 with Wheel skis that was FULL with Ex wife and dog. Found the back side of a wave and a rotor so ended up inverted throttle back and letting the heavy part head down!! got out of the bottom and there was a tunnel under all the way thru Telkwa so stayed about 100 feet off the ground so wouldn't have so far to fall!!
I have only been in Severe Turbulence these 2 times.
Hope to never get there again.
GT

blackrock wrote:Just don't get caught in whatever causes this:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODF/TimberBlowdown.shtml

They are all over the west if you look close enough... I've come across them hunting - damn near impossible to cross on foot.

IN 1996 there was a wind event in South Central Oregon that blew down a lot of timber like that. The Weather Service in medford said it was a "Low level Jet". He said the jet stream actually came down to the surface in those areas where the timber was blown down.

I wish I could remember the names of all the salvage sales after that. Some were pretty clever. Zephyr and Mariah are a couple I do remember.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkmvwCpcZlM

by tcj » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:56 am


IN 1996 there was a wind event in South Central Oregon that blew down a lot of timber like that. The Weather Service in medford said it was a "Low level Jet". He said the jet stream actually came down to the surface in those areas where the timber was blown down.

That would make sense. I've been through some amazing wind storms in timber that knocked trees over around us. But the total destruction in these blow downs must be caused by a lot more energy. Scary stuff!

M6RV6 wrote:there is a big bunch of trees that look like pickup sticks that all of them are pointed out!! This is almost a perfect circle and probably close to a 1/2 mile wide!!I

I was a west coast faller for awhile, and one of the contracts we worked was a whole big valley of blowdowns, up Alice Arm just N of Kingcome Inlet. We were in there about 2 months taking apart that big pile of pickup sticks, many of which had lots of "spring" in them. Heli show, and they paid us too much & only let us work 5.5 hrs a day.

I think hitting bad shear like you (& others) have mentioned is a freak, like getting caught in an avalanche, there's lots'a ways to get killed. I ain't gonna stay on the couch tho. My worry was the thought of getting hit with a shear near the ground, but it sounds like that is pretty remote chance. I like cruisin' along @ 3-400' lookin' at stuff & didn't want to be borderline suicidal for being dumb!

Oregon180 wrote:Wyoming turbulence deserves its own category, at least in my experience.

Amen... I'll do a Canada end around going to Idaho from Oklahoma just to avaoid southern Wyoming.

The quality of turbulence is not strain'd,
It droppeth the gentle plane from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice bounced:
It bounceth him that flies and him that lands.
--With apologies to Shakespeare.

Sorry I was up late last night with a sick wife. I'm a little punchy. I must have gotten off pretty lucky, the 4 times or so I've flown through Wyoming it didn't seem any more turbulent that California's central valley. I remember one time flying to Bridgeport it was smooth sailing over the Sierras and back. Then we got about to Mariposa and hit one big single BUMP. Left us both 2 inches shorter I'm pretty sure. I think the most turbulent place I've ever flown is southern Oregon on my last trip home from Oshkosh in the RV-4. Like riding in a truck with shot springs.