Holy cats...the flap handle is only 12 inches long? There's your physics at work. I'd sure extend that handle, unless there's some compelling reason not to.

MTV

mtv wrote:Holy cats...the flap handle is only 12 inches long? There's your physics at work. I'd sure extend that handle, unless there's some compelling reason not to.

MTV

I'm just guessing. It's probably longer, but it's not huge by any means.

That said... some people would [apparently] pay a lot of money for 12" of length!

But yeah, compared to most other aircraft - it's small. Thus my desire for more size. Girth would help too, hard to get a hold of it.

At least one of the Bearhawk guys I know have converted to electric flaps and is very pleased with the results. Very simple install and used the RV10 linear actuator with pre-select. Options?

175 magnum wrote:At least one of the Bearhawk guys I know have converted to electric flaps and is very pleased with the results. Very simple install and used the RV10 linear actuator with pre-select. Options?

Oh jeeeeezz......now you've done it: Restarted the "Dumping flaps after landing" discussion.

Let er rip......

MTV

Part of this will seem mercenary, flame away, but the suggestion is valid.

First, I absolutely 100% agree with all comments that remind people to observe VFE. The maximum allowable speed is NOT always the appropriate speed... especially on an older airplane that you are paying for maintenance on. Not by a longshot!

Assuming that the Bearhawk and Maule and any other airplanes in question have seats that actually move forward and back, you can solve the flap handle actuation force problem another way. Move the seat rearward as far as you can and still safely reach the rudder pedals. A lot of people have their seats too far forward, because they want to have a shorter reach for the flap handle when it's on the floor. The further forward the seat is, the worse your body geometry gets when it comes time to pull the last notch of flaps, when the flap handle is next to your rib cage.

When you move the seat rearward, then the flap handle (at full deflection) moves further away from your rib cage, and the better geometry (and effective strength) you have to pull the handle. In some cases it may be worthwhile to re-adjust the angle of the rudder pedals, or extend them rearward.

Of course moving the seat rearward may solve the "full flap" issue, but it also makes the problem of reaching the flap handle more difficult when it's at zero deflection on the floor. The solution to this part of the problem is to either put an extension on your arm to reach further or put an extension on the flap handle to put the flap control to where you can reach it, which is of course the mercenary part. Sorry about that boys, but physics don't lie...

The best possible solution, with the least compromise, is to designt he airplane from the start with pilot ergonomics and actuation forces as a primary consideration. NONE of the major US aircraft manufacturers did this when most of these airplanes were designed. One manufacturer figured this out way back in WW2, when the British built an aircraft called the Auster, which had the flap handle swinging downward from the upper part of the cabin. This design looked a bit ungainly at first, until you flew one. Then you realized that there was no loss in visibility, no ridiculous cockpit gymnastics,and a completely unobstructed arc of movement with a long high-leverage flap handle.

I think one or two of the modern Cub manufacturers has used this Auster flap system design on their models, I don't remember which ones. But if you want manual flaps, and you want enough mechanical advantage for great big powerful flaps, and you want to see where the hell you're going while you're using the flaps, that's the right place to mount the flap control.

What is the flap activation process on the BH ?
Is it just a simple pull cable to bellcranks in the wings, or something else ?
What system is used on the ailerons, elevator and elevator trim ? is it all cables ?

Sorry EZ, but if you put a 6" extension bring the flap handle into reach, then it will still be just as hard to pull full flap when the handle is next to your ribcage with the seat moved back 6". In my mind, moving the seat back 6" and moving the flap handle back 6"(if it is truly near vertical for full flap) is not helping the problem. But I never was good at simple geometry...

A1Skinner wrote:Sorry EZ, but if you put a 6" extension bring the flap handle into reach, then it will still be just as hard to pull full flap when the handle is next to your ribcage with the seat moved back 6". In my mind, moving the seat back 6" and moving the flap handle back 6"(if it is truly near vertical for full flap) is not helping the problem. But I never was good at simple geometry...

With the EZ flap handle you can still use the regular flap handle as well. Pull on the first 2 notches with the EZ flap, and the last 2 with the regular handle. Or any combination you want that you find most comfortable.

robw56 wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:Sorry EZ, but if you put a 6" extension bring the flap handle into reach, then it will still be just as hard to pull full flap when the handle is next to your ribcage with the seat moved back 6". In my mind, moving the seat back 6" and moving the flap handle back 6"(if it is truly near vertical for full flap) is not helping the problem. But I never was good at simple geometry...

With the EZ flap handle you can still use the regular flap handle as well. Pull on the first 2 notches with the EZ flap, and the last 2 with the regular handle. Or any combination you want that you find most comfortable.

Thanks Rob for explaining. I was not aware that you could still use the regular handle.

Thank you Rob.

EZFlap wrote:Part of this will seem mercenary, flame away, but the suggestion is valid.

First, I absolutely 100% agree with all comments that remind people to observe VFE. The maximum allowable speed is NOT always the appropriate speed... especially on an older airplane that you are paying for maintenance on. Not by a longshot!

Assuming that the Bearhawk and Maule and any other airplanes in question have seats that actually move forward and back, you can solve the flap handle actuation force problem another way. Move the seat rearward as far as you can and still safely reach the rudder pedals. A lot of people have their seats too far forward, because they want to have a shorter reach for the flap handle when it's on the floor. The further forward the seat is, the worse your body geometry gets when it comes time to pull the last notch of flaps, when the flap handle is next to your rib cage.

When you move the seat rearward, then the flap handle (at full deflection) moves further away from your rib cage, and the better geometry (and effective strength) you have to pull the handle. In some cases it may be worthwhile to re-adjust the angle of the rudder pedals, or extend them rearward.

Of course moving the seat rearward may solve the "full flap" issue, but it also makes the problem of reaching the flap handle more difficult when it's at zero deflection on the floor. The solution to this part of the problem is to either put an extension on your arm to reach further or put an extension on the flap handle to put the flap control to where you can reach it, which is of course the mercenary part. Sorry about that boys, but physics don't lie...

The best possible solution, with the least compromise, is to designt he airplane from the start with pilot ergonomics and actuation forces as a primary consideration. NONE of the major US aircraft manufacturers did this when most of these airplanes were designed. One manufacturer figured this out way back in WW2, when the British built an aircraft called the Auster, which had the flap handle swinging downward from the upper part of the cabin. This design looked a bit ungainly at first, until you flew one. Then you realized that there was no loss in visibility, no ridiculous cockpit gymnastics,and a completely unobstructed arc of movement with a long high-leverage flap handle.

I think one or two of the modern Cub manufacturers has used this Auster flap system design on their models, I don't remember which ones. But if you want manual flaps, and you want enough mechanical advantage for great big powerful flaps, and you want to see where the hell you're going while you're using the flaps, that's the right place to mount the flap control.

Bad assumption regarding moveable seats. The new certification regulations make it harder than ever to certificate a seat that moves. Bearhawk is Exp, so can do whatever, and I don't know what they do.

As to the overhead flap handle, that's fine right up until you crash. Then, you're very apt to be removing that handle from the face of the pilot.

It's amazing how elastic the human body can be when shoulder harnesses aren't kept as snug as they should be. I know this because a friend died of the proximate cause of a portable GPS embedded in his face after an accident in a cub.

I like the IDEA of an overhead flap lever, but I've never seen one that wouldn't kill you dead in a typical accident.

FWIW

MTV

When i did the common mod of shortening my Super cub flap handle about 3" it made a tremendous difference. Pulling anything more then the first notch any where near the top of the white arc became almost impossible for me. It was worth shortening the handle for the leg room at full flap but totally sucked the rest of the time. It really was amazing that 3" off the handle made it useless at higher speeds.

damn that mechanical advantage!

I wouldn't have guessed 3" would have that much effect either. Probably some trig involved with the different angle your arm was applying force with on the shorter handle as well.

Battson, how's the longer stick?

mtv wrote:
It's amazing how elastic the human body can be when shoulder harnesses aren't kept as snug as they should be.

Mike, can I use that quote in my advertisements ?

Just kidding... I couldn't resist. Everyone put their baseball bats away.

As for the other poster's comments on shortening the Cub flap handle, several years ago there was quite a fracas on another internet forum about flap handles in Super Cubs. A part of that brawl involved shortening the flap lever to clear your legs, leverage at VFE, etc.. I offered a sincere suggestion for a much better way to alleviate that problem. It may bear repeating here.

Reduce the stick travel without changing the certified control surface travel, so that you get max. aileron deflection before the stick hits your knee. This will of course make a change in the "control balance" of the Cub, but it's not like the control balance of a Cub was in the Jungmeister or RV-3 class anyway. It's a different compromise. You would have to use more arm force to bank and un-bank the airplane than you did before, but in return you would be able to get more total roll authority when you needed it. Considering the kind of maneuvering and extreme flight regimes that the Cub pilots are operating in, it would seem to me that this would allow more controllability in those extreme corners of the flight envelope.

The safety improvement and control authority improvement would be obvious enough, that the FAA would likely approve this type of modification with much less of a fight than you would otherwise expect changing a primary control circuit. I"m fairly sure that a control system that hits your knee before you can get full deflection could NEVER be certified today.

But, the unique brand of flora and fauna over on that particular forum were not at all receptive to that type of discussion, so I dropped the idea. Somebody in the Cub modification business should do this, it would probably be pretty simple, and solve a problem that almost 100% of Super Cub pilots complain about.

EZFlap wrote:

mtv wrote:
It's amazing how elastic the human body can be when shoulder harnesses aren't kept as snug as they should be.

Mike, can I use that quote in my advertisements ?

. I"m fairly sure that a control system that hits your knee before you can get full deflection could NEVER be certified today..

Be my guest with the quote.

As to the certification point, go fly a Husky or a Cub Crafters Top Cub.....both fairly recently certificated Part 23 airplanes.

MTV

Reduce the stick travel without changing the certified control surface travel, so that you get max. aileron deflection before the stick hits your knee.

EZ- There are quite a few cubs running around with this mod. A simple extension is added to the aileron cable/ stick attach point maybe an inch long. You should try to get one certified as it works very well. I was told someone in AK was working on getting it certified but i dont remember who.

PAMR MX wrote:
EZ- There are quite a few cubs running around with this mod. A simple extension is added to the aileron cable/ stick attach point maybe an inch long. You should try to get one certified as it works very well. I was told someone in AK was working on getting it certified but i dont remember who.

How long has this mod been in use? I made that suggestion in a forum post sometime in late 2009 or early 2010 if I recall. For the sake of curiosity and a smidge of ego, I'm wondering if I was the first, or the hundredth person to think of that idea.

EZFlap wrote:Of course moving the seat rearward may solve the "full flap" issue, but it also makes the problem of reaching the flap handle more difficult when it's at zero deflection on the floor.

I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head here EZ.

After some more toying around in the weekend, flying a few new spots, I realised that the problem comes when I roll my seat right forward and especially when I use the "STOL cushion" to help see where I am landing. That unusual seating position exacerbates the difficulty. I've started employing the high AoA (read slow) landings, but I also like to see where I am touching down until the last possible second.
So it's a balancing act between good ergonomics, and seeing the "airstrip" as clearly as possible when I've never walked the spot. In my usual recumbent seat position, the flap handle isn't bad at all.

I measured the Maule flap handle at 15" from forward end to hinge bolt.
However the length of the section behind the hinge bolt would also come into play.
Anybody have a description of BH flap mechanism ?

EZ- I would guess they came from that time frame. Who knows. Wish i still had my cub and could work on getting it certified but mehh.. time.