I like the show on Nat Geo (Inside Combat Rescue) on Monday nights. And let me back up a second and say that those people are the heroes. Y'all can keep the pro athletes, musicians, and movie stars.

On one episode, one of the rescue helicopters came under rocket fire after departing the LZ with wounded. The pilot performed multiple S - turn -like maneuvers and deployed flares. Looked like a hell of a ride. Anyway, I was wondering why they fly so high over there? Seems like the only time they are less than a couple thousand feet is over empty desert. In old video of Vietnam operations the Huey's would be on the deck. I know nothing of getting shot at but it seems like the lower the better, especially around the populated areas where an unfriendly is looking to light up one of ours.

Have the techniques changed or are they just not accurately portraying it on TV?

Been there done that - U.S. Army helicopter pilot 1966- 1996 retired CW5

182 STOL driver wrote:Been there done that - U.S. Army helicopter pilot 1966- 1996 retired CW5

So...on the deck or up higher? Where do you go when they're shooting at ya?

Been there done that.... but what is the answer to his question?

Not a rotor head, but with the lack of a credible Ground-to-Air Threat, they might be trying to avoid the "golden BB" from small arms fire..

Hey Bill . . . you know that "helicopter" is a French word for "fat, slow target"???

Zzz wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:Been there done that - U.S. Army helicopter pilot 1966- 1996 retired CW5

So...on the deck or up higher? Where do you go when they're shooting at ya?

In southeast Asia normal operation altitude was less than 100 agl , they might hear you coming but hard to see you thru the trees . No time to line up a shot except when you were stopped dropping off or picking up troops. I could write a book and never explain how it felt to be under fire. Held the unit record for being shot down more times in one day than anyone else in unit. Read SOG and several of my notable mentions are there . Spent 29 months in RVN - with 6 month break and then another 45 months - same unit 90th Special Operations Group . Ammo can of metals /awards and buck will get me a cup of coffee .

Bill,
I want to thank you for your service!

A very good friend of mine has spent most of his career in Special Operation as an HH-53 Pave-Low driver. I can try and give him a call this weekend and see what he has to say. My guess though would be an add on to what Mr. Bill R. said....in SE Asia they had a lot of vegetation that enabled them to 'hide' until they were nearly on top of their LZ. Whereas in the sandbox it is just that, a sandbox with nothing to shield your approach. A close and slow moving object is easier to hit with ground fire than one that is several thousand meters away. Just conjecture, but an RPG is a short range weapon that is readily available to insurgents and they can wreak havoc on a whirly bird. My thinking is distance is your friend.

Keith

Current active duty CW4 with 24 years (12 as an enlisted assaulter) and 13 deployments to Afghanistan as a pilot in the military's only special operations assault helicopter unit. Helicopters are forced to get down low to transition from cruise flight to initiate an approach to an LZ where we'll routinely brown out at 100'+. You're also low departing the LZ until you clear the dust cloud and get through effective translational lift (ETL) which is about 20kts.

The biggest surface to air threat in Afghanistan is RPGs and small arms, which are less effective above about 1,000' AGL, and a relative non-event above about 2,000'. We also get some altitude if the weather is crappy if there's no icing or terrain threats.

In the desert, it doesn't matter how low you get, they can still hear you coming 10 miles out depending on wind, they just may not know the direction. Unlike Vietnam where in parts of the country the terrain clearance altitude was measured in hundreds, not thousands of feet as it is in Afghanistan. We're much more at risk of smacking one of the 24,000' mountains in the Hindu Kush or Tora Bora than we are getting shot down. Different enemies and environments dictate different flying tactics.

Bill, I swear either I have the best luck in meeting people, or there were a heck of a lot more special operators, or a lot less "regular" guys in Vietnam. Over 6 years in country, and then getting shot down all those times...that'll take a toll on a guy. For only having a total of about 2,000 special operations personnel (MAC-SOGV) in the entire theater throughout the war I think I may have run into about...2,500 of them in the last decade. Fortunately we have one right here on BCP!

Mike-

I think Bill Reid will agree with me that Charlie was a better shot and more dedicated. I was shot down in a Cobra, at treetop level in the bottom of a gun run on a running target, in the Song Be mountains. My son did three tours in Iraq and said they were not very good shots. Stearman, are they better in Afghanistan?

I forgot to mention; it was the guys in the brown uniforms who were not running that got me. I didn't see them until too late.

Stearman4,
Thank you for your service also!
My daughter is stationed at JBLM and just returned from her second deployment in Afghanistan. I was there a couple months ago to welcome her home. First time I ever saw more than one day of sunshine while there.

WV,

How's the girl's Cassutt doing? I haven't seen one flying around. That may be because you got the one day of sun we've seen since Christmas? Contact; I don't know if there's a difference in the quality of shots between either Iraq or Afghanistan. Afghanistan certainly has claimed more helicopters due to environmental conditions. I think they're probably comparable marksman, but Iraq had more densely populated areas to hide.

Had not given terrain clearance any thought...what I've seen on the program is daytime operations and the landscape looks flatter than piss on a board.

Thanks for the explanation, makes sense. You guys do some great work, I am very proud of our men and women in uniform. Gives me great hope for the future.

Sierra Hotel wrote:Not a rotor head, but with the lack of a credible Ground-to-Air Threat, they might be trying to avoid the "golden BB" from small arms fire..

Hey Bill . . . you know that "helicopter" is a French word for "fat, slow target"???

80-100 knots flat out with 2.75 rocket pods hanging out. When you'd fire off 3-4 pair of 2.75's in pairs I'd swear the UH-1C would push you back . Hows your 58 doing -Got that big wheel thing going ?

Down south around Kandahar it's flat like the desert you imagine. As you go north past Kabul, and Bagram you hit the Hindu Kush mountains where field elevations are about 5,000' MSL and it looks like the Brooks Range...sort of. At least that's what I tell myself month after month

182 STOL driver wrote:

Sierra Hotel wrote:Not a rotor head, but with the lack of a credible Ground-to-Air Threat, they might be trying to avoid the "golden BB" from small arms fire..

Hey Bill . . . you know that "helicopter" is a French word for "fat, slow target"???

80-100 knots flat out with 2.75 rocket pods hanging out. When you'd fire off 3-4 pair of 2.75's in pairs I'd swear the UH-1C would push you back . Hows your 58 doing -Got that big wheel thing going ?

Yeah, last year I put 8.50's on the main and a 310 fork with a 6 on the nose. Lost about 5 knots at cruise when I did that and took the speed panties off. What a difference!

This year cleaned up the panel a bit, taking out the old Loran and ADF, putting an AirGizmo panel for the 495. I replaced the ELT with a 406, took out the rotting carpeting and replaced with with Lonseal flooring.

Weather's been great this spring, so I've been able to put a few hours on her after not flying at all since November due to winter and business travel. I hope to get out and do a bunch of fun stuff this spring and summer.

Stay cool down in your neck of the woods, send a little warmth up my way!

Not military, but flew UH-1N in Somalia, Rwanda and Haiti. Felt pretty good over 2000' AGL, even better if on top of any cloud cover. If low for a landing we'd come in real low, and fast. No armour, except maybe a flak jacket or two under the seat or in the chin bubble. Each location had different hazards. Flying over cities we'd try stay crossways to the streets, lights out at night. Load the biggest passenger into the other front seat and skid your turns to keep him between you and a hot spot. Flying with local officials it was always low and fast into the LZ, seems a rocket into the aircraft was part of succession planning for their politics. Nothing like finally getting into an LZ only to get waved off by the landing officer because there was too much shooting to unload passengers. Got all my bar stories now, don't need to do it again.

Most holes went into the tail, guess none of them had ever shot skeet.

Stearmann4 hit it on the nose. I've never flown in the Kandahar area, but in the eastern part of Afghanistan it's pretty mountainous. We were briefed that terrain had claimed more aircraft than ground fires. In Northern Iraq there's a little bit of terrain relief but not enough to matter. The ground won't mask you in the desert and getting that low just opens you up to wires and unlit, hard to see towers.

stearmann4 wrote:WV,
How's the girl's Cassutt doing? I haven't seen one flying around...

Mike, you've got your Minnesotans mixed up ;>). Or maybe Keith's daughter has a Cassutt too! Allie has her Cassutt hangared at Chehalis, it hasn't been getting flown as much as it should though. Glad she added Camguard. She's been keeping busy with the C-17s. I was hoping to make it out there this summer for the first time, but now doesn't look like it will happen before her next deployment.

GB, sorry for the brief hijack, didn't think you would mind a brief Allie update.

Mark J

Don't forget, Fly out of trim. The locals often lead off the nose not the direction of travel. AH-1F and UH-1, but too young for Vietnam.