Just wondering how many people have been subject to a ramp check. Is it that big of a deal? How far do they crawl up your A## and how big is the microscope?

Thanks
Dan

I've been flying since 1965 here in Nevada, and never been checked.... (knock on my wooden head).

I have been at it since 1980 and have dodged the bullet. I don't know how big a deal it is and I hope I remain in the dark.

Welcome Dan,

I have been checked twice the first involved much discussion and finger pointing years ago.

The second was a look at my certificate, medical, asked if he could look in the plane.

He wanted to see the airworthiness, POH, weight and balance.

He told me I shouldn't have the registration papers hidden by my survival gear. I laughed at him he said he was serious.

He then told me I had a nice airplane and walked away.

Not a big deal..........

I've never gone through a ramp check as a "private" pilot, but fly for a living and it's like having fleas. Always there, you itch now and then, but you just get used to it and go about life as usual.

99.9% of the Feds are OK guys, and once you get to know them, and they you, you can have a good working relationship. On the ramp with someone new... Be polite, professional, and have the required paperwork lined up and squared away like you should anyway.

Certificate, medical, and now photo ID. All the airplane stuff. I've seen guys get dinged for charts before. If you're flying from Bumfuk to East LA using a WAC from 1973, the big city Fed's probably gonna forget his overdue cup of coffee, and decide to look a bit closer at you and your airplane when you hand it to him.

They can't open doors or climb in your airplane without permission, and you do not have to carry a logbook with you when you fly. If they want a log entry to show currency, you can photocopy the page and mail it to them from home.

Bottom line is these guys aren't going to waste their time on a pilot who is polite and professional, and has his/her ducks lined up in a simple row. Only takes a couple minutes, and you can each leave a good impression on the other.

Now of course watch... I'm flying up to Reno/Stead in a couple minutes, and I'm gonna get the ramp check from hell from some bad mood new guy who wants to see a written weight and balance for the ice chest in the back of the airplane and want to know how many beers I drank on the trip. Murphy's law.

Gump

Which brings up charts. Are they required for flying around the pea patch? I know my EFB meets the requirement, but does a handheld?
Excuse the ignorance, but what pops into my brain is the required charts are those "apprioate to the the route being flown" probably a military rememberance.

a64,

You are not required to have charts if flying VFR. Just don't get lost. The point reference charts is that IF YOU DO have charts, they should be CURRENT ones.

I've been ramped a number of times, working in AK. Never had a problem or a hassle, and nobody ever asked to see charts.

If I can find my way from Point A to Point B because I am very familiar with the route, no charts should be or are, required.

My experience with ramp checks is pretty much the same as Gump's.

MTV

hello

I have only been flying for a couple years but have always been worried about a ramp check. There is no POH for a Luscombe and no cg calculation is required if the plane is within gross weight, that's according to the TC. I just worry the Fed won't believe it.

The regs don't reference a "pilot operating handbook", but they do require you to have a copy of the aircrafts "operating limitations". Not the same thing. There is no POH for a 170, but there is a set of operating limitations.
If the TC has the instructions/limitations you need (like "no w&b calc's required..."), photocopy that & have it aboard-- then you're covered.

Eric

Actually, the "Operating Limitations" are contained in an "Approved Flight Manual". That is ONE of the three locations of "Operating Limitations". The other two are instrument markings and required placards.

The 170 DOES have an Approved Flight Manual. It also has a POH, by the way. You can still order them from Cessna, as is also true of the AFM, by the way.

In later years, the industry standardized (to keep the FAA from regulating it) to produce standardized POH's which contain the AFM. All newly manufactured airplanes have the AFM content contained within the POH. But, the other types of "Operating Limitations", instrument markings and placards, are still required to be displayed.

Some very early airplanes did not come with an AFM, relying solely on the contents of placards and instrument markings for the pilot's information on how to operate the airplane. I'm not sure if the Luscombe fell into this realm, but I'd bet it has an AFM.

MTV

I never been ramped but I heard you need a sectional if your more than 25 miles from your home base.
I understand their was a pilot that was busted in our area for flying into a jump meet where the airport was closed for the weekend for the meet.
I heard he was nailed for - landing at a closed airport, Not calling for airport notam's,and a sectional that was out of date and being more than 25 miles from his home base with out a current sectional.

I don't know, Maybe some of these FAA guy make the rules as they go.

Pertinent FAR:

§ 91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—

(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;

(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:

(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and

(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.

See anything in there that requires a chart? Again, if you have a chart, it should be a current one, but even then, if the violation wasn't predicated on something that was absent from the older chart, I doubt it would stand.

There are many, many, "I heard a guy got busted" stories out there. Most of them are just that: Stories.

Now, if the fellow in question flew into a closed field, he was in violation of the above reg, because he didn't "become familiar with all pertinent information regarding that flight". They could certainly cite him for careless and reckless as well, if he barged into the middle of something.

MTV

While I have not verified this, I did bump into it.

What is the FAA policy for carrying current charts?
The term 'charts' is not found in the FAA's Part 91 regulations (other than for large and turbine-powered multiengine airplanes in 91.503[a]). The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 'Preflight Actions,' states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. What is not specifically addressed in the regulation is a requirement for charts. You should always carry a current chart for safety's sake. An expired chart will not show new frequencies or newly constructed obstructions, some of which could be tall enough to be a hazard along your route of flight.

The only FAA/FAR requirements that pertain to charts are:
Title 14 CFR section 91.503[a] (Large and Turbojet powered aircraft)
Title 14 CFR section 135.83 (Air Carriers-Little Airplane)
Title 14 CFR section 121.549 (Air Carrier-Big Airplanes)
The FAA has rendered interpretations that have stated the foregoing. The subject of current charts was thoroughly covered in an article in the FAA's July/August 1997 issue of FAA Aviation News. That article was cleared through the FAA's Chief Counsel's office. In that article the FAA stated the following:
'You can carry old charts in your aircraft.' 'It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft.'
'Not all pilots are required to carry a chart.' '91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts.' 'Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements.'
...'since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board.' That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
...'the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
'If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken.'
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect.

I came out to my plane one day to find a red tag on the door! scared the hell out of me but when I called the number on the tag the man was very polite and easy to work with. He had tagged my plane because it didn't have a stall warning device. He had noted the spot on the wing where the little flapper would usually be installed and assumed that it was missing. On a Stinson they never had a stall horn from new, the wing cover kit installed on my plane had a spot to put one but it is not required.

I had to show documentation that my Stinson did not need it and that was the end of the issue.

Shane

I got ramped the other day at KRNO. I put a big copy machine in the back seat and piqued their curiosity. Weight x Arm = Moment. Too much for these guys. Over 90 minutes of first grade math and they tell me the book is wrong. Oh well. Fast forward a week. I load another copy machine (this time at N86) to avoid persecution. I fly it out to EKO. I'm ordering fuel and when I turn around, there he is! The same (insert derogatory name here) that ramped me in Reno. He wants to see my weight and balance again. So we went to the plane and when he saw the copy machine he asked " is that the same machine?" I smiled and said no this one is much lighter. Then I showed him the w/b from a '59 182B which has the arm in inches so he could understand it. He frowned and told me that it needed to be signed by an I/A and if he catches me without it signed he's going to write me up. Never asked about charts.....

Hey Dave:

I would have thought that he would have asked about the scrap aluminum and pop rivet gun that you cary arround.

Tim

You never let an opportunity slip by when you are my age.

Tim

mtv wrote:Actually, the "Operating Limitations" are contained in an "Approved Flight Manual". That is ONE of the three locations of "Operating Limitations". The other two are instrument markings and required placards.
The 170 DOES have an Approved Flight Manual. It also has a POH, by the way. You can still order them from Cessna, as is also true of the AFM, by the way. ..................MTV

You got me, "airplane flight manual" is what is required to be onboard as per FAR 91.9 (b) (1). The "O" in the ARROW that you have to have (airworthiness,registration,radio license,operating limitations,weight & balance) is contained in the AFM. I have the original copy of the one page (front & back) Airplane Flight Manual for my 1948 170, dated Feb 12 1948. The AFM includes illustrations of the required placards as well as w&b, speed, & performance information.
As far as I know, there is NOT a "pilots operating handbook" available for the 170 series, at least the 1948 model. However, there is owners manuals for the various years, which does not necesarily contain all the info from the AFM.

Eric

Ramp check? How about DEA swooping in with their Lear (or was it a Citation?) at a small little strip in southern AZ. All cocked and loaded with an attitude to go with it!! What a bunch of arrogant jerks!!
I had flown my 172 from Ft. Huachuca, AZ to Wilcox to get it annualled. I was legally keeping it on the military post and they started jumping my $H!T about flying in restricted airspace and being in an active MOA. I tried my best to be polite but Mr. KNOW-IT-ALL wouldn't listen. (A guy does try to keep his composure when there are several MP5's and other hardware in the immediate area.) I tried to explain to him that it was a weekend and the MOA was inactive, but he wouldn't listen. I also explained that I was military and that Ft. Huachuca is where my plane is based with written documentation to support my right to be there.
After he finally contacted someone who did know...and realised I had been right, he just turned around, strutted back to his jet powered carraige and zoomed away. No apology or explanation...just an attitude from hell.
And to think I actually wanted to work there when I got out of the military.