The topic of ramp checks at Burning Man came up on an email list I belong to. Then one gentlemen posted an interesting take on ramp checks. I thought I would post what he wrote here and reap the collective wisdom of the most opinionated bunch of ne'er-do-wells in all of aviationdom. Here's what he wrote:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RAMP CHECK FOR PART 91 OPERATIONS

We should all be exercising our rights given to us in the constitution and refusing ramp checks. Be polite, and read below. This is a fact that should be known by all private (part 91) pilots:
Seen at: http://azpilots.org/



Part 91 ramp check? Just say
"No." - (I did.)

Mike Palmer, ATP/x-CFII

The August 2013 issue of the APA's Newsletter offered some advice
about how pilots should deal with ramp checks. (See the Executive
Director's Report, pages 3 and 4.)

Unfortunately, the Executive Director did not make any distinction in the article
between Part 135 operators ("Commercial" pilots), Part 121
operators ("Airline" pilots) or the general catch-all, Part 91
operators ("Private" pilots). But these are important
distinctions because, per the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution, there
is no such thing as a "ramp check" for Private pilots!

See, according to the Constitution, which calls itself the "Supreme Law of
the Land" (supreme over the FAA and Homeland Security), you have a right to be
free from warrantless searches. As it pertains to Private pilots and
so-called "ramp checks," the Fourth Amendment means that an FAA
Inspector does not have the right to board or enter your private property
(your aircraft) unless he has a search warrant. Even the chief legal
counsel of the AOPA sees this. (See the last paragraph of the January
2011 article Ramp check by John Yodice.) As such, a lot of what you've
been told about ramp checks (even by the AOPA in a later article and on
its website) is wrong.

Since you'll probably have to educate the authorities about this (as I once had
to), let's start by discussing where the concept of a "ramp
check" came from in the first place. It's quite logical when you know
the facts. Unfortunately the logic has become fuzzy over time.

So first, so that you know the facts, you need to know that we pilots are bound
by law to obey the FAR's only. That is, we are NOT bound to obey the
FAA's internal rules for its employees, known as FAA Order 8900.1, as some
would have you believe.

Unfortunately, that title, "Order," for the FAA's Handbook is an
intimidating misnomer. It has even confused at least one federal
judge who improperly dismissed an aviation matter because the judge
took the title too literally. But the FAA's internal regulations are
not "orders" that apply to YOU. They only apply to FAA workers.

Nevertheless, the belief that the FAA's Handbook is controlling law for pilots
is fairly entrenched within the FAA. See, for example, this
article on ramp checks, written by a FAASTeam Program Manager. Notice that
he says HE is required to obey the Handbook. Again, that does not mean YOU
are. (Kudos to him for getting some things right, as we'll see
below. But he gets some things wrong too.)

Now that we know we are only bound by the FAR's, let's examine them. It might
surprise you to know that there IS such a thing in the FAR's as a
"ramp check!" (Although it's not called that by name.) But ramp
checks are only for FAR Part 135 Commercial operators and FAR Part 121 Air
Carriers. See FAR 135.73 and FAR 119.59 respectively.
There is a logical basis for this.

See, these operators fly the public around for hire. And the FAA's mandate is
to protect the public. Therefore, Congress gave the FAA the right to
board these aircraft for inspection whenever it wants. In essence, these
operators waived their Fourth Amendment right to warrant-less searches
when they signed up to carry passengers for hire. But if you're a Part
91 Private pilot, none of the FAR's about impromptu invasive inspections
(i.e., ramp checks) apply to you.

Unfortunately, fuzzy logic has crept in over time. While it's the FAR's that
give inspectors the legal authority to inspect commercial operators,
when it comes to inspecting private operators, Inspectors cite their
internal Handbook for authority instead. But, as we've said, the Handbook
is not controlling law for pilots.

Kudos to the FAAST guy (above) for acknowledging that, per the FAR's, private
pilots don't have to provide access to their aircraft. Too bad he
contradicts himself later when he says you may have to remove your
Airworthiness Certificate so he can inspect it. (He cites FAR
91.203 for authority but FAR 91.203 does not say that.)

Even if the FAA's internal rules did apply to you, that doesn't automatically
make them lawful orders. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that,
the Constitution notwithstanding, an internal FAA order said an FAA
Inspector could board your Part 91 private plane during a ramp check. That
would be like the IRS writing an internal rule in its Special
Agent's Handbook saying an agent could kick down your door anytime he
wanted. That is unconstitutional and therefore, not lawful. You do not
have to comply.

Next problem: The FAA confuses the differences in the FAR's between commercial
and private pilots, telling us you have to produce the same papers
that a commercial operator would. But you don't.

For example, commercial operators have to calculate and record a Weight &
Balance manifest before every flight for hire. But as a Part 91
operator, there is no such requirement for you. You only need know that
you are within your W&B for safe flight. Kudos to the FAAST guy again
for acknowledging that Part 91'ers don't have to show a W&B
calculation.

Similarly, as a Part 91'er, you do not have to show aeronautical charts either.
Again, that's a Part 135 regulation. (Specifically it's FAR
135.83.) See how this goes?

Now, as with a cop, an FAA inspector can ask you anything he wants. (The FAAST
guy says he'll ask when you last had a BFR.) But as with a cop, you
do not have to answer or consent to a search. And, as with a cop, anything
you say can be used against you.

Fact is, by law, there's very little you have to do. The FAR's only say that
you have to show (not give or surrender) your pilot's license and medical
(and now photo ID) to an FAA inspector or law enforcement officer upon
request.

I actually went through this once and survived. Years ago my airplane partner
and I had flown in for an air fair in New Mexico to talk up General
Aviation. I was immediately suspicious when some guy in a white shirt was
kinda waiting for us as we taxied in. (Not a line man.) After saying
"Nice airplane" (it's a Glasair and was a novelty at the time)
he asked, "Where's your Airworthiness Certificate?"

I knew the only guy in the world who would ask about an Airworthiness
Certificate would be an FAA guy. I didn't have to show it to him
(especially since he hadn't identified himself), but I humored him. I knew
it had to be legible to the passengers or crew and it was. Pointing
through the canopy, I said, "It's there." Then I locked up the
plane saying, "We're late for pancakes."

I thought that was the end of it, but he returned a few hours later, pulled out
his wallet and flashed something at me that said "FAA" in
big red letters. (Although I don't know what real FAA identification looks
like. Especially nowadays, when anyone can print a fake ID on their
computer. And this was a Saturday. Was he really on duty?) He said,
"May I have the pleasure of giving you a ramp check?"

I said, "No." I told him, "There is no such thing as a ramp
check for Part 91 operators. That's only for Part 135 and Part 121
operators." That stunned him. Then he asked to see my pilot license, which
I acknowledged I had to show him. (Although, technically, I hadn't
flown in, so wasn't acting as PIC. But I wanted to spare my airplane
partner from my actions.)

Now, maybe flashing an ATP license helped, but that pretty much ended it. I did
make the mistake of handing him my license. (Lesson from Bob Hoover.
Don't do that. As with your driver license, the law only requires you show
it. I now carry copies of my pilot and driver license to give to
authorities when required.) Thankfully he didn't keep my license
but merely wrote down my certificate number in a little notebook of
his. I never heard more about it.

Look, our counterparts on the oceans have lost this battle. Pilots of boats let
the Coast Guard board their private vessels all the time under the
guise of "safety." (Even though the CG is really looking for
drugs.) Like the FAA, the Coast Guard can legally board commercial
ships without a warrant. But not private ships.

Nevertheless, boat pilots have abrogated their rights. Now so-called Homeland
Security is trying to do the same to us. Don't let them. You have a
Constitutional right "to be secure in your person, house, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" no matter what
some Agency writes in their little Handbook.

Exercise your Fourth Amendment right. "Use it or lose it," as the
truism goes. When it comes to a Part 91 ramp check, just say
"No."

P.S. If you don't have a cell phone or tablet that records audio, I suggest
carrying a digital audio recorder with you at all times. It will
record all day on a charge. They cost only $50 but will be invaluable if
ever you have to fight for your rights.

More links:
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All- ... unsel.aspx
http://discountaircraftbroker.com/faa-ramp-checks/
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... enDocument
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... enDocument
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... enDocument
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... enDocument

Good stuff. Probably good too that I have lots of lawyers in the family. I may need their help someday. That's the problem with administrative law. The f*****s will wear you down.

Awesome! Thanks for starting this thread. I'm excited to follow this. I've always wished I was savvy enough in my rights to be able to not have to do more than is required of me by law.
I feel this way when I get pulled over or at a border checkpoint or in my plane. This is great!
I'm sure some will have the outlook of if you have nothing to hide what's the big deal. But not me. Im one of the few that stills enjoys my freedom and doesn't like to waste the blood that was shed to be able to say no.

I'm wondering what reprocusions they will threaten you with when you do stand up?
Does this also transfer to other agencies?
I was "checked" by a customs pilot once because I was flying low and close to the border.
Also had a buddy swarmed by cops, dea,and customs when he landed doing the same. He refused and they said they would detain him until they got the warrant.... Can they? They had no probable cause. Then you hit the probable cause being you won't let them look so you must be hiding something issue.

Hope this goes for a while with some intelligent people chiming in. I'm all ears and a sponge.

I think there needs to be an important distinction between the various meanings of "ramp check."

I have always understood it as a cursory examination of your operating credentials, i.e. AROW, in addition to any glaring airworthiness issues that are apparent from a walk around.

In recent times, the meaning has sometimes been associated with warrantless search of the aircraft interior, whether by CBP, TAS, local swat team, TJ Hooker, or Barney, and this is what I understand this letter you pasted to be a response to. Recall the John and Martha King being greeted by SWAT at Santa Barbara airport a few years back. Or the Silverstein guy who had his Cirrus ransacked by CBP on the ramp.

I don't think you will get away with refusing to show an FAA inspector your airworthiness certificate, your registration, your operating manual, your weight and balance sheet, your pilot certificate, and your medical certificate (if required.) That's a ramp check in my understanding. FARs state that you're required to present those documents.

The other more invasive search and inquisition is a whole new beast that should be challenged along the lines of constitutionality, but see how well that is going for motorists vs most law enforcement bodies. As for "having to educate" an inspector or LEO on the law, how well do you think that will be received? In general, any federal officer who would engage you with intent to search your aircraft will likely not tolerate being educated by someone without a badge, and in their narrow perspective, no innocent individual would refuse search if they were actually innocent.

And, in my opinion, with your $50-200K baby out there at the center of this, as well as your personal well being and possibly your wife and kids if they are with you, how many of you will challenge law enforcement in this situation if the response to your refusal means being thrown to the ground with a knee in your neck, tased, cuffed, et al, while your family watches. Now you have an arrest on your record, say goodbye to crossing into Canada to fly to Alaska, as well as many other privileges that we the law-abiding take for granted.

I could go off on this topic, but the reason most people don't resist or challenge law enforcement or feds is for fear of losing what they have and jeopardizing their comfortable lifestyle. Most will comply just to get it over with as fast as possible. Unfortunately, anything you do out there on the ramp won't help policy. Only legal action and follow up with aggressive counsel will have even a glimmer of hope of making a dent.

He's full of shit.

A ramp check, by FAA definition is not a "boarding or search" of an aircraft. In fact, an FAA Inspector does not have the authority to do that in any case. They do, however, have the authority to request to see the required documents for the aircraft and for the pilot. If you refuse to provide these, that will (should) be the end of that conversation. However, at some later date, you will receive a letter from the Chief Counsels office, to the effect that you are being investigated for failing to provide proof of your certification and your airplanes airworthiness to an authorized inspector.

You are then facing a suspension of your pilot PRIVILEGES.

A "ramp check is specifically NOT. A search as defined by the constitution.

Read and believe all this bullshit if you like, and read all the other BS put out by these folks.

But if an authorized person (and that's NOT just an FAA Inspector) try's to ramp check you, it's probably best just to SHOW them your paperwork, and move on.

MTV

I agree with MTV on this one.

Equating the regulatory "ramp check" with a search under the 4th Amendment is a lot like comparing oranges to onions--they're both spherical, but there the similarity ends. A ramp check is a short, very benign, inquiry with a request to see a few documents. A search could take all day into the night, requires probable cause (which doesn't occur just because you say "no"), and a warrant (which won't occur just because the LEO says "I'll get a warrant if you don't consent"). I haven't defended any accused criminals in a few years, but I did a bunch of that most of my career--take my comments as you choose.

I don't feel it's necessary to repeat AOPA attorney John Yodice's good advice about ramp checks, but I'll summarize it as I understand it: If the FAA rep shows his ID, then you show yours (certificate, medical, and picture ID). If the FAA rep then asks to see the airplane's paperwork, then you show it (airworthiness certificate, registration). If the FAA rep asks to board the airplane, you say, "gosh, I don't think my lawyer would tell me to do that." If the FAA rep asks to see your logbook, you say, "gosh, if you'll give me an address, I'll copy it and send you a copy." If the FAA rep asks to see anything else, you say, "gosh, send me a letter which asks what you want, I'll give it to my lawyer, and I'll have my lawyer respond."

My own experience went like this, some 40 years ago--and it's the only one. Late afternoon, I landed a rented 172 at Newcastle, WY, for fuel, before flying on to Sundance, WY, to visit my folks. Tall guy in the obligatory white shirt and tie landed in a Bonanza. While I was standing watching the rampy fill the tanks, he asked,
"Where are you going?"
"Sundance".
"That's a pretty small strip--think you can handle it?"
"I've been in there maybe 20 times in the last year and a half."
"Oh. Could I see your pilot license?"
"Tell you what. You show me yours, I'll show you mine. But make it snappy, because it'll be dark soon and I can't land at Sundance in the dark."
He laughed and said, "Have a good flight."

That was it.

Cary

not sure I would go with this guys advice.

Part 61.3 (that applies to all pilot certificates) states,

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.



That is in my opinion a ramp check. Most of the time they will just ask for your documents and a few other questions. I think being polite and courteous will get you done sooner. Do not offer any more information than asked for and keep answers short. Do not give the inspector a hole to dig in. I have been through multiple ramp checks, as a 135 pilot, and they have never asked to board the aircraft. The FAA has the right to board and ride along on part 135 and 121 flights. BUT That is a very different type of event.

I got ramped a couple months ago. There was an aerobatic competition and I had to gas up. There were four planes in front of me and the FAA was ramp checking everyone at the pumps. As soon as I pulled up two guys with clipboards and name tags on lanyards introduced themselves and politely asked if they could ramp check me. I always have my ducks in a row and promptly provided them all my info. They were very polite and did not get anywhere near looking at anything inside the plane until I offered. I offered because they were drooling on the bushwheels and thought it was a neat plane and clearly wanted to check it out. I keep a weight and balance sheet with the various configurations I commonly fly in, like back seat out etc. They didnt need to see that but appreciated it was included and that I was organized. When they looked inside they just glanced and smiled about my dog in the back n that was that.

Took about 5 minutes n then BS'd about bush planes for a few minutes, one of them was really excited about cubs n 180s and genuinely seemed to appreciate our type of flying. I handed them all my documents, pilot certificate and drivers license. They just jotted some stuff down and gave them right back. No big deal, just have your AROW together with certificate/medical n that's it. I had been told before never to give anyone my certificate but really felt I had no reason for concern about them holding onto it in my presence, I can see how it would all depend on the demeanor of the inspector though. Not sure this helps the conversation, but I was kind of nervous about a ramp check before it happened from the horror stories i'd heard. It was less intrusive than a roadside stop by a traffic cop.

Waterboy wrote:(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.

To clarify my position I am ramp check neutral. Never been ramp checked but I have nothing to hide either. All my ducks are in a row so I don't fear being ramp checked. I just wanted to open a dialog one what was presented.

Question: Which section of the above do the FAA employees that do ramp checks fall under? 1, 2, 3, or 4?

This is all just genuine curioscity on my part so no need for anyone to get upset.

Yes, we all have the "right" to refuse regulatory oversight from the FAA. Of course we may then loose the "privilege" of our pilots certificate.

mtv wrote:He's full of shit. .........

Read and believe all this bullshit if you like, and read all the other BS put out by these folks. ........

MTV

Since you appear to have a strong opinion [that Pt. 91 ramp checks are legal], do you have any authorities (FARs, case law, article or something)?


Interesting topic. It would be nice to know one way or the other.

Take a look at : www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarte ... retations/

That's where case law is.

I had a boss once who told me "You know, you are kinda paranoid.....but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."

I've NEVER been so paranoid I'd believe any of the horse lucky perpetrated in that first post.

Do a little research on that link and let me know what you think.

Or, put on your tin foil hat.....

MTV

svanarts wrote:

Question: Which section of the above do the FAA employees that do ramp checks fall under? 1, 2, 3, or 4?
.

[/quote]

#1

From FAR part 1, Definitions


"Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned."


That would be the FAA inspector.


I don't think you go anyone too wound up.

What Rule or CFR directs or sets the rules for a ramp check for a part 91 pilot?
I have been looking?
119.59 works for 121 and 135??
Thanks

119.59 is referring to the operators air carrier certificate not a pilot certificate.

The guidelines you are looking for might be in the inspectors hand book. It should be available on the FAA .GOV site.

Hope that helps. I'm sure its fun reading.

Waterboy wrote:

svanarts wrote:

Question: Which section of the above do the FAA employees that do ramp checks fall under? 1, 2, 3, or 4?
.

#1

From FAR part 1, Definitions


"Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned."


That would be the FAA inspector.[/quote]

Perfect, thanks!

Waterboy wrote:I don't think you go anyone too wound up.

Seems to have gotten mtv a little hot.

C'mon guys--read the thread again--you've been given the answer to the question, what authority is there to do a ramp check of Part 91 operators (us), but here it is again:

14CFR61.3(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.

"The Administrator" includes any designee, i.e. the Inspector or any other FAA employee whose duties include doing such inspections.



Cary

I believe that it is still clear as mud Cary. I have been told (right hearsay) that us non commercial guys do not actually have to consent to a ramp check and that part 135 guys can decline if it interferes with their schedule etc. Now it also seems clear, that pending the circumstance, this may or may not cause the inspector to attempt to contact you at a later time to conduct the inspection or verify documents. I had an email from a friend of a friend who is an FAA inspector outlining the law in detail. According to that email, part 91 is not part of the FAR you quoted and only applies to commercial operators/operations etc. I have it on my computer and will drudge it up when I get back home.

Just like so many things tho, depending on the inspector or LEO, some would have you believe you are subject to a full search, including cavities, if they deem necessary.......

Administrator
1. a person who administers, esp. one employed to manage the affairs of a government, business, institution, etc.

Clearer than mud to me, I agree with Cary, not rocket science, the agent for the administrator walks up to the plane asks for your docs, you ask to see his ID, he proves who he is you show him your credentials then your aircraft docs, then you move on.