Curious with all the STOL kit discussions going on, if anyone on here has had experience removing a horton kit to install a sportsman kit???
Is the performance gain worth it?
What is the weight difference?
Is there any complications with having the old holes in the wing?
Can you or should you leave the stall fences(I've seen a couple pics of this and not sure why)?
I have B&M flap and aileron gap seals with my horton kit, should I replace them with Sportsman provided seal?

Just thinking about a this for the winter project. Lets here your thoughts!

Aktahoe1 and motoadve both removed Horton stol kits and replaced them with a Sportsman. I think bigrenna had a Bush stol kit then switched to the sportsman as well. The Sportsman cuff is larger and will cover up the old holes in the leading edge. The stall fence can be left on.
The Sportsman kit only has aileron gap seals. You should probably call Willie Steene and ask if yours would need to be replaced.

I do not think the cost would be worth it. If I were putting on a STOL kit from scratch I would for sure go Sportsman. That is what I did and I left on the Horton flap gap seals. Not enough bang for the buck to change it out. If I had purchased a plane with either a Bush or a Horton, I would be just fine. John Brinton has a 58 180 with a Horton and he was really good when he was flying a lot. I have never landed so slow.

Kinda like a penis enlargement. Way too much money and down time to only get a 1/8 of an inch.

Tim

I guess it depends on your wallet and ambitions. The stock wing and Horton STOL kits are good and will serve one well, but the Sportsman's kit is far superior imo.

Now that I have the Sportsman kit on, will I go land anywhere that I couldn't land before? Probably not. But I now have a safer, better handling plane that will have less wear and tear on it from landing and taking off shorter. Not only that, I guess my penis is now 1/8" longer.

Do it , its totally worth it, changes it to a different plane, much more fun and safer.
Approach speeds from 60mph and-the plane sinking to 50mph and stable.

Take off at 40 mph.
For me yes it changed where I would go land.

Remove the flap gap seals, remove the fences( Willy Stene recommended this)

I had VGs with the Horton and passed them to the Sportsman, 50mph good control and stable.

You will have a lot more fun

This approach, 2 people , half tanks, look at the ASI and how stable is.
No way I could do it with the Horton.

How do you guys feel about the takeoff/climb performance? That is where I am hoping to see improvement.

Jeredp wrote:How do you guys feel about the takeoff/climb performance? That is where I am hoping to see improvement.

If I can tag on to that, what about engine-out glide ratio and best glide speed?

Definitely shorter take offs, starts flying at 40 mph.
Better climb, slower best glide speed.
Floats a lot now.

When landing in windy conditions come slow or you will float forever.

Jeredp wrote:How do you guys feel about the takeoff/climb performance? That is where I am hoping to see improvement.

That one is hard for me to tell. I put bushwheels on right after the sportsman which add weight and drag and probably reduced the climb. If you put the sportsman on your 172 it should perform quite similarly to my 170. Take off is much improved now. I can get the airplane airborne at less than 40mph Indicated airspeed. Usually by poping 40 degrees flaps then immediately and slowly reducing flaps for climb out. This technique is especially helpful for off airport takeoffs and very short strips. The new Vx is 48mph allowing you to climbing a lot steeper than before. The slow speed handling is awesome. I routinely fly at 50mph and can make tight turns, like 180 from downwind to final with complete confidence and solid control. For short field landings I usually use 45mph and some power. Normal approaches up to gross weight I use 60mph down to about 55mph with a lighter load. Wether or not you want to spend the 2k to buy the Sportsman and replace the Horton is up to you. At least you are an A&P and can do all the work yourself. Finally, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'll install the Sportsman STOL kit on any Cessna I ever own.

robw56 wrote:

Jeredp wrote:How do you guys feel about the takeoff/climb performance? That is where I am hoping to see improvement.

That one is hard for me to tell. I put bushwheels on right after the sportsman which add weight and drag and probably reduced the climb. If you put the sportsman on your 172 it should perform quite similarly to my 170. Take off is much improved now. I can get the airplane airborne at less than 40mph Indicated airspeed. Usually by poping 40 degrees flaps then immediately and slowly reducing flaps for climb out. This technique is especially helpful for off airport takeoffs and very short strips. The new Vx is 48mph allowing you to climbing a lot steeper than before. The slow speed handling is awesome. I routinely fly at 50mph and can make tight turns, like 180 from downwind to final with complete confidence and solid control. For short field landings I usually use 45mph and some power. Normal approaches up to gross weight I use 60mph down to about 55mph with a lighter load. Wether or not you want to spend the 2k to buy the Sportsman and replace the Horton is up to you. At least you are an A&P and can do all the work yourself. Finally, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'll install the Sportsman STOL kit on any Cessna I ever own.

Thats good info Rob, thank you. As you said, the time/labor don't matter to me. If I can help the climb and increase the safety factor over the horton, I can justify the cost.

qmdv wrote:I do not think the cost would be worth it.

Kinda like a penis enlargement. Way too much money and down time to only get a 1/8 of an inch.

Tim

Totally disagree... I had an Owl cuff on previously (very much like the Horton but no fences.) Pulled it and added the Sportsman and VG's. The 180 flys very differently now compared to the Owl. Much better and totally worth the cash.

I'd get rid of the flap gaps.

FS: Clean n straight Horton STOL up for grabs, fits early 180/182, droopy wingtips negotiable, stall fences not included please make offer...reason for selling? Sportsman's settin in the hangar waiting for install haha

Horton breaks sooner than Sportsman, increased power off glide n slower power off landings are the kinda insurance worth payin for. If u don't have em get big tires too!

Do the Sportsman......you won't regret it.

And, lose those flap gap seals.

MTV

mtv wrote:Do the Sportsman......you won't regret it.

And, lose those flap gap seals.

MTV

So Mike if you had a 170 with a Horton, you would remove it and install a Sportsman. Before I installed the Sportsman on my stock wing 56 182 I asked Mr Steen about the flap gap seals. He basically said to flip a coin on that one.

I think best glide speed is the same but with no power you can slow it down more before you hit the trees. Not sure about ratio.

Tim

I have been struggling with the same question. When it comes right down to it, I think I would rather spend the money on ART wing extensions. You get a way better handling, slower flying plane, and get a gross weight increase.

bigrenna wrote:

Totally disagree... I had an Owl cuff on previously (very much like the Horton but no fences.) Pulled it and added the Sportsman and VG's. The 180 flys very differently now compared to the Owl. Much better and totally worth the cash.

I'd get rid of the flap gaps.

Greg, did you put the wingX on at the same time as the sportsman? I'd be curious to know how much of the handling difference is from which mod...

Scratch that bigrenna, I see you don't have the wingX on your plane. Still, id be curious the difference that it makes, and having the gross weight increase is nice too...

qmdv wrote:

mtv wrote:Do the Sportsman......you won't regret it.

And, lose those flap gap seals.

MTV

So Mike if you had a 170 with a Horton, you would remove it and install a Sportsman. Before I installed the Sportsman on my stock wing 56 182 I asked Mr Steen about the flap gap seals. He basically said to flip a coin on that one.

I think best glide speed is the same but with no power you can slow it down more before you hit the trees. Not sure about ratio.

Tim

Tim,

If money was not a big issue, that's exactly what I'd do. And he indicated earlier that he could do the cost.

The flap gap seals are designed to increase speed by closing off part of the slot on the Cessna "Para Lift Flaps". Thus at least partially defeating the benefit of those flaps. And, the speed gain is minimal to the point of being difficult to measure.

Let the flaps do their job, in impeded.

Opinion.

MTV

I've had them all Bush,Mid America, Owl,Horton, Robertson, and Sportsman. Best bang for your buck SPORTSMAN hands down . Robertson is very good but has limitations beyond 20 degrees flap down. Time to install is about same (except Robertson) . I've heard some people will remove Horton to put on a Sportsman . For me NO flap gap seals or VGs at all, Aileron gap seals OK .

A bit off topic - I just saw a crosswind's stol on a 182 .. http://www.crosswindsstol.com/products.html .. hows that in comparison to the all popular sportsman ?