53H,

Well, you may, as you suggest, be the greatest expert on your aircraft. I've certainly met some pilots who were pretty familiar with their aircraft.

I've also met a LOT more pilots who couldn't tell you which end was supposed to go forward unless they were seated in the pilot's seat.

I've looked at a couple of airplanes that were "owner maintained" and frankly, they were in terrible shape, and would require thousands in repairs to get them even marginally airworthy.

So, as always, it depends.

But, by your logic, since I'm an excellent driver, I shouldn't have to abide by any speed limits, nor should I have to stop at stop signs or stop lights unless there's another car there, right?

Sorry, but you can claim that the world should be without rules, but I don't know of any civilization that has successfully operated like that.

You could try Afghanistan right now--I think they're pretty close.

MTV

mtv wrote:I've looked at a couple of airplanes that were "owner maintained" and frankly, they were in terrible shape, and would require thousands in repairs to get them even marginally airworthy.

So, as always, it depends.

But, by your logic, since I'm an excellent driver, I shouldn't have to abide by any speed limits, nor should I have to stop at stop signs or stop lights unless there's another car there, right?

Using that logic, we shouldn't be "allowed" to work on our own cars, trucks, or motorcycles either. Heaven forbid I put new tires on my bike and make the mental connection that I'm also allowed to ride 100 MPH down my residential street. That leap is not from A to B. It's from A to Z, and frankly just ridiculous.

I can just see Obama's new Federal Automotive Administration, modeled after our own FAA in action. Certified carframe and engine mechanics. Logbooks for your personal car. STC's for wiper blades and Kragen Auto rebuilt starters. Inspectors able to detain you without probable cause to check your "papers." License suspension for a year if you get caught putting new brakes on your car, or fixing a bent fender without reporting it, and getting a ferry permit to drive home. Sounds like Nazi Germany to me, and where I'd really like to live.

Two guys limping home in their own airplane is not "an airliner full of paying passengers" nor an air taxi with paying passengers, nor anything else other than two citizens of the United States exercising their rights to travel in their own vehicle at their own risk. Yeah, I know that the fix could fail, and they slide off the runway and kill a bus load of 5 year old hemophiliacs, or buckle the firewall and go down in the desert and set fire to a herd of spotted owls, or maybe scare bigfoot. Stuff happens. Hell we have idiots on this site that can't take off or land perfectly healthy airplanes without wrecking them. That's life with freedoms. There is no perfectly safe, nor should there be.

Gump

Okay Gump, so where would you draw the line?

Two guys in a 182 is okay you say. What about six people in a 206?

Or, let's say your son or daughter is climbing into the back of a Citation with a group of ten folks. Course, it's a seven seat airplane....and the owner, a rich rock star type, has been doing the maintenance hisself, including just a little tweaking on the engines to get a little more power out of them. And, the engines are 7,000 hours over TBO, etc, etc.....

Heck, there are privately owned Boeing 737's. Those could make a heck of a mess with a hundred folks aboard. What's the difference if it's an airliner or a private BBJ? Lots of bodies in either case.

Where do you draw the line? I'm not saying I agree with every FAR, I sure don't think all of them are all that necessary.

On the other hand, many if not most of them have come about because someone bent something really bad, or hurt someone.

I agree that we can't legislate common sense.

But we are a country of laws, as I recall.

Yeah, I know, the FARs aren't exactly laws, or are they? Let's not get THAT debate started.

You're ignoring the salient fact, that airplanes are and are perceived (important word and concept) to be more dangerous to the public than automobiles, particularly if parts fall off, for example, or if an engine were to quit or light on fire, maybe over downtown Reno...That could be messy.

Same thing happens with your car?? Generally not a big deal at all. Pull over to the side of the road. Get a beer.

Review FAR 91.119, for example. How low can you legally fly? You can only tie the record, actually, and the FAA says that's okay, as long as you don't pose a threat to folks on the ground. They aren't saying you can't risk your passengers lives, just that you can't create a hazard to people or property on the surface. That's pretty lenient, actually.

Now, granted, you can do a lot of damage with a car, and people do all the time....point is, those instances almost always result from a violation of the traffic laws as well. As I noted earlier, should I be permitted to drive at any speed I care to in a school zone, just cause I'm a really shit hot driver?

Hey, I didn't invent the FAA, and I sure don't defend them much. But, if you think we've got it bad, try going to Europe and flying around a bit. Or Russia, the new democracy.

We'll never agree on this topic, but when you start sending your loved ones for a flight in some of the pieces of s#&* airplanes flying around that have kind of "escaped" professional maintenance for a dozen years, I'll believe you're serious. There are people out there who do not possess a mechanic's certificate, and do fantastic work. Hell, go to Oshkosh, and look around there.

I'm just saying that I like the notion of having a professional mechanic look at an airplane every once in a while, myself.

MTV

GumpAir wrote:

mtv wrote:I've looked at a couple of airplanes that were "owner maintained" and frankly, they were in terrible shape, and would require thousands in repairs to get them even marginally airworthy.

So, as always, it depends.

But, by your logic, since I'm an excellent driver, I shouldn't have to abide by any speed limits, nor should I have to stop at stop signs or stop lights unless there's another car there, right?

Using that logic, we shouldn't be "allowed" to work on our own cars, trucks, or motorcycles either. Heaven forbid I put new tires on my bike and make the mental connection that I'm also allowed to ride 100 MPH down my residential street. That leap is not from A to B. It's from A to Z, and frankly just ridiculous.

I can just see Obama's new Federal Automotive Administration, modeled after our own FAA in action. Certified carframe and engine mechanics. Logbooks for your personal car. STC's for wiper blades and Kragen Auto rebuilt starters. Inspectors able to detain you without probable cause to check your "papers." License suspension for a year if you get caught putting new brakes on your car, or fixing a bent fender without reporting it, and getting a ferry permit to drive home. Sounds like Nazi Germany to me, and where I'd really like to live.

Two guys limping home in their own airplane is not "an airliner full of paying passengers" nor an air taxi with paying passengers, nor anything else other than two citizens of the United States exercising their rights to travel in their own vehicle at their own risk. Yeah, I know that the fix could fail, and they slide off the runway and kill a bus load of 5 year old hemophiliacs, or buckle the firewall and go down in the desert and set fire to a herd of spotted owls, or maybe scare bigfoot. Stuff happens. Hell we have idiots on this site that can't take off or land perfectly healthy airplanes without wrecking them. That's life with freedoms. There is no perfectly safe, nor should there be.

Gump

I agree with you Gump.

Thinking about the government regulating our on road vehicals. This is what the 2009 Oregon legislature feels they need to spend the peoples time and money on.

House Bill 2186

Authorizes Environmental Quality Commission to adopt rules to
help state to achieve greenhouse gas emissions reduction goals.
Specifies rules that commission may adopt.
Declares emergency, effective on passage.

Restrictions and prohibitions on the sale and distribution
of after-market motor vehicle parts, including but not limited to
tires, if alternatives are available that decrease greenhouse gas
emissions from motor vehicles;

This 2009 Act being necessary for the immediate
preservation of the public peace, health and safety, an emergency
is declared to exist, and this 2009 Act takes effect on its
passage.

Rob writes:
It goes on to address trucks and ships running there engines while parked.
No modifying your vertical if it cause it to get lower mileage than stock. No big tires. No hi performance changes.

You see that they are calling this an emergency!

After cars and trucks come aircraft.

How long will it be, before the GOVERNMENT PRIVILEGE to drive and FLY for fun is revoked??

Think it can't happen, think again.

Rob

mtv wrote:Okay Gump, so where would you draw the line?

Two guys in a 182 is okay you say. What about six people in a 206?

You can "what if" all day long.

The C182 guys "do it right." Call the insurance company and an A&P. Drive a truck and trailer up into the mountains and pull the wings off the airplane, load the wreck, and head back to Nevada for repairs by said A&P. Coming down the mountain the rough road breaks the tongue of the trailer, and the A&P has to weld the frame. All looks well, and off they go. Coming down Hwy 95 into Oregon the weld on the trailer tongue breaks, and the trailer breaks loose from the truck, then careens into a tour bus full of gray haired grandmothers headed for the Indian casino, and kills 85 people in a huge fireball of burning flesh.

Tragic accident, public outcry, horrible... What do you do? Let Darwin and the civil courts work it out as happens now? Create new federal regulations saying that only federally certified welders be allowed to work on, and then sign off, any welding on any vehicle that is to be driven on a public road? I say bullshit.

Let that rock star crash his airplane. I hope he hits my house. I can use the money. Us little guys in little airplanes are not a threat to the public safety. To ourselves, hell yes, but that's our right. And there may be some "private" B737's out there, but I'm betting the $$$ involved keeps those airplanes well pampered and well taken care of. I'm a whole lot more afraid of piss poor airlines cutting costs and corners. They're the ones who have the potential for big crashes, and have the potential to do a whole lotta harm. Not the little guys sneaking home across the desert in a 182.

To get back to the original start of this thread, I'm just looking for some common sense, personal freedoms being unimpeded, and punishment fitting the crime when dealing with the government. Revoke a kid's pilot certificate for flying after what amounts to a private property fender bender? Just for "attitude." That's like being sent to jail by the court for having for having a tail light out on your car and mouthing off to the cop who wrote the ticket... That's arbitrary and capricious. Our constitution was written specifically to protect US citizens from such government action, and the FAA/NTSB have become powers such that they feel above that constitution and do not have to answer to it...

Gump

mtv wrote:
You're ignoring the salient fact, that airplanes are and are perceived (important word and concept) to be more dangerous to the public than automobiles, particularly if parts fall off, for example, or if an engine were to quit or light on fire, maybe over downtown Reno...That could be messy.

MTV

Actually Airplanes are not more dangerous to the public based on the recorded deaths. The majority of the airplane deaths are in airliners not privately owned aircraft. Whereas the majority of auto deaths are 4 passenger privately owned vehicles. The fact is that the highways and byways of the country are messy in blood, wreckage and carnage.
As for perceptions of citizens who are preached propaganda from the media who can take that serious in a serious discussion? and how can one justify the over bearing regulations and bureaucracy mandated over pilots and their private aircraft based on a created perception to further the existence of a bureaucracy?


Airplane deaths world wide
note* not one major American airliner crashed in the last 2 years with any deaths.
year deaths[6] nr. of accidents[7]
2008 876 147
2007 965 136
2006 1,293 164
2005 1,454 184
2004 766 165
2003 1,224 198
2002 1,399 173
2001 1,535 187
2000 1,567 179
1999 1,130 198
1972 3,214 -

Automobile Deaths in the USA
# year — deaths — population — %population — %change
# 1975 — 44,525 — 215,973,199 — 0.000206160 — null
# 1976 — 45,523 — 218,035,164 — 0.000208787 — 1.27%
# 1977 — 47,878 — 220,239,425 — 0.000217391 — 4.12%
# 1978 — 50,331 — 222,584,545 — 0.000226121 — 4.02%
# 1979 — 51,093 — 225,055,487 — 0.000227024 — 0.40%
# 1980 — 51,091 — 227,224,681 — 0.000224848 — -0.96%
# 1981 — 49,301 — 229,465,714 — 0.000214851 — -4.45%
# 1982 — 43,945 — 231,664,458 — 0.000189692 — -11.71%
# 1983 — 42,589 — 233,791,994 — 0.000182166 — -3.97%
# 1984 — 44,257 — 235,824,902 — 0.000187669 — 3.02%
# 1985 — 43,825 — 237,923,795 — 0.000184198 — -1.85%
# 1986 — 46,087 — 240,132,887 — 0.000191923 — 4.19%
# 1987 — 46,390 — 242,288,918 — 0.000191466 — -0.24%
# 1988 — 47,087 — 244,498,982 — 0.000192586 — 0.58%
# 1989 — 45,582 — 246,819,230 — 0.000184678 — -4.11%
# 1990 — 44,599 — 249,464,396 — 0.000178779 — -3.19%
# 1991 — 41,508 — 252,153,092 — 0.000164614 — -7.92%
# 1992 — 39,250 — 255,029,699 — 0.000153904 — -6.51%
# 1993 — 40,150 — 257,782,608 — 0.000155751 — 1.20%
# 1994 — 40,716 — 260,327,021 — 0.000156403 — 0.42%
# 1995 — 41,817 — 262,803,276 — 0.000159119 — 1.74%
# 1996 — 42,065 — 265,228,572 — 0.000158599 — -0.33%
# 1997 — 42,013 — 267,783,607 — 0.000156892 — -1.08%
# 1998 — 41,501 — 270,248,003 — 0.000153566 — -2.12%
# 1999 — 41,717 — 272,690,813 — 0.000152983 — -0.38%
# 2000 — 41,945 — 282,216,952 — 0.000148627 — -2.85%
# 2001 — 42,196 — 285,226,284 — 0.000147939 — -0.46%
# 2002 — 43,005 — 288,125,973 — 0.000149258 — 0.89%
# 2003 — 42,643 — 290,796,023 — 0.000146642 — -1.75%
# 2004 — 42,836 — 293,638,158 — 0.000145880 — -0.52%
# 2005 — 43,443 — 296,507,061 — 0.000146516 — 0.44%
# 2006 — 42,642 — 299,398,484 — 0.000142426 — -2.79%
# 2007 — 41,059

Got em stirred up now!!

MTV

Gotta admit, it is fun

Gump

Would it be a good time to bring up the issue of the the usefulness of the third class medical?

Tis good learning fo shor. I hopped on this wagon mostly for post counts. Over the 100 count now, the way I figure it that makes me a damn good pilot. Next cross country trip will be 3 -200# buddies, some camping gear, and if we have any room left, a cooler of beer and 1 good running 165 hp Stinson.
Headed for Idaho back country to see some nekked hippy chicks.
If I break a tail spring giving the nekked hippy chicks a ride, I will be very careful flying out by myself. Oh, and I will KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT.
If I take 6 feet off a wing while showing off to the nekked hippy chicks, I will go find a trailer.

Forget about the third class medical, lets talk sport pilot. A sport pilot takes off with two people and has a heart attack, hasn't been to the doctor in 20 years, has always felt great. Got his drivers license in AZ so hasn't had to renew in over 30 years and is allowed to fly airplanes. How does this make any sense?

Oh Evil Ones!! Ya just had to start on the medical deal dintcha?



MTV

It's time for a rebellion!!!!!!!

Waiting for a reply right now on my medical...just got a letter first of Jan.

bcpstudent wrote: Over the 100 count now, the way I figure it that makes me a damn good pilot.

That should give you some indication of how great I am, then.

ha ha
Z,
To build a web site like this you are great!
To deal with some of the crap that goes on here you are the greatest!
As to your post count you are a great dictator

patrol guy wrote:...and speaking of "Big Brother", I googled my N number just for kicks the other day and got a page full from "flight tracking with fboweb.com".

I was VFR, no flight plan, on a pipeline patrol. When I got near Pittsburgh, PA, I contacted them as usual for a heads up.

This page I got showed my times of radio contact, a full ground track of my movements on a map, my altitute, type and model airplane, and times to the minute, etc. This is all without a 406 transponder.

They know what you are doing.
John

Well, they might if you have a mode S transponder, or talk to them with your N number. However, if you are like most of us, most of the time, and have a mode C transponder and don't get flight following or otherwise get identified by ATC, . . . then they don't know what you are doing. Think how long it took Steve Fossett to get found.

bumper

About 4 years back, a Carat motorglider piloted by a retired airline pilot went IMC with no gyros, no O2, no parachute, and no good options. He pulled the wings off and did the lawn dart thing. I was the last person to talk to him on the ramp before the flight. There's more to this story but I'll get on with mine.

The debri field was some 5 miles north of KMEV and was about a mile in length. Little pieces fluttered down and the winds were strong that day (wave conditions). NTSB was investigating, so I volunteered to take my 7AC Champ with a friend and go see if we could locate the missing canopy and ailerons.

We flew a grid pattern at several hundred feet AGL from the POI down wind, dropping down to 50' to get a better look at stuff that could have been wreckage. We were mostly over fields, but as we approached power lines or structures, we either turned well before reaching them or climbed to 500'. This included the south fence of the Nevada Correctional facility that was a mile north of the POI.

As we flew parallel to the prison fence, we saw people running inside the prison walls carrying guns. I though they may have been practicing so we diverted well away from them (not wanting to get my plane ventilated). At no time did we overfly the prison itself nor did we overly any portion of the wall at less than 500'.

A month or two later, I get this letter from the FAA saying the guards got my N number, said I flew as low as 200' over the guard towers, *and* the prison went into lockdown! They asked me to explain myself in a statement. This, I did. I also got my friend (a retired ATP) to write a statement as well. I called the investigator assigned to nail me to the wall - - not a bad guy, and told him the full story. Unfortunately I had erased my GPS track, as that would have helped, though it didn't record altitude.

I sweated it out for a couple of months, but the FAA came back with a finding that the complaint against me "could not be substantiated".

Free at last! Woohooo!

Lessons learned: No good deed goes unpunished. Always call before you go anywhere near a prison with an airplane. They'll think you are gonna drop drugs, weapons, or land to pick someone up (I guess).

bumper

Bumper, your reputation precedes you, apparently...

MTV

Since we are all sharing...a couple of years I got "the FAA call" myself. I used to fly over my kid's school while they were at recess to wiggle my wings for them to say hi. I was ever-vigilant as there are some hills around and well...it's a school. I'd watch my altitude and was mindful of not laying on the throttle for noise control.

The FAA guys told me I was reported for flying too low and to send them a letter admitting that AND that I would never fly over that AREA again. I'd never known what "being guilty until proving otherwise" was until then (unless you can count growing up with 3 brothers and being blamed for everything). I have, however, been talked down to, and they were good. Talking about my N numbers and that they could only be seen below a certain height, young lady!

Question: can the FAA legally revoke your right to fly over a certain area with no proof (or proof from one witness)?

Well, to wrap this up. I sent a very carefully, politely worded letter myself denying any wrongdoing. And then got an aviation lawyer/pilot/family friend who knew these guys, and signed an even more carefully, politely worded letter stating that while I certainly regretted the fact that my flying may have caused some concern, and that I was and would be very strict in monitoring my altitude, I would not agree to avoid flying over the area.

No attitude, stay polite always. It was dropped and no record of it.

NOW, here's the KICKER on who turned me in and why it happened in the first place. It was an FBI agent out scouting the road and neighborhood by the school as Bush was scheduled to eat dinner with some friends in the area and drive by the school a week later. BINOCULARS!!!!!!!! No TfR.

AK, sorry for what you are going through. Whether a person is right, wrong, or indifferent, it's not a good place to be in by any means.