First off, I PM'ed Z to make sure this was ok to post.. Since he didn't Pm me back calling me a douchedag I might be back on his kinda list... ...

Let me say right up front,,, This guy emailed me out of the blue, says he tried to subscribe to BCP to offer his insight in S&R but never got invited into the fold. .. I assume he picked me because my website is in my sig line.

He asked me to discuss this topic with other BC pilots to get some feedback..

I don't know if this is 100% true,, 100% BS ,,,or somewhere in between.. But if it is true and the people died then I hope this screw up of S&R procedures will be the tipping point on major changes to help fellow pilots..

Here is the email he sent me.. I was going to delete his name and contact number but decided to leave it in so interested parties can chat with him directly....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ben!


I'm an old fogey who believes in lessons learned rather than blaming others. Please ask the other folks to keep this private for now. We don't need anyone stirring up these agencies right now or upsetting the family.


We LOVE the many dedicated folks who comprise SAR teams! But in the case of this crash, the system was horribly [b]broken.


These are some of the things that apparently went wrong with the notifications & procedures. They are listed chronologically whenever possible. Note: The aircraft apparently crashed shortly after noon on Sunday, 11.2 miles East of the Fillmore Airport (FOM).


1) There was an unconfirmed report in Sevier County on Sunday of smoke on the ridge between Millard County and Sevier County. Because there was no report of an aircraft emergency, it is unknown what procedures were implemented.
2) Although the FAA reportedly issued an ALNOT Report at 1148, Monday -- lots of counties and agencies were NOT notified for several days.
3) Utah CAP (usually Chaplain Boyd) regularly briefed the extended family on the search area & number of planes assigned. At the time, we did not know that they kept refusing other SAR resources (Pilots For Christ - Wyoming and other volunteers). It is still unclear who they did & did not notify. It is still unclear if they truly had the authority for all command decisions and had the right to refuse competent SAR resources. There seems to be conflicting guidance on this and even the counties didn't seem to know who was in charge.
4) Tuesday evening, I was flabbergasted that the Millard County Sheriff's Office dispatcher told me that they were NOT aware of any missing plane even though they were located in Fillmore -- where the plane was last seen. Chaplain Boyd had briefed me that he was in touch with their acting Sheriff and he knew about it -- but the dispatcher claimed no knowledge of it and wasn't interested in the information.
5) In subsequent days, family & friends were contacting lots of county sheriff's offices to verify that they had been notified. We are still gathering times, dates, names, etc., but several counties including adjoining counties told us on Wednesday & even Thursday that they had received NO notifications on a missing plane in the area. Some counties said that they were quite upset because they had highly trained & equipped SAR resources that would gladly have begun searching days earlier.
6) Wednesday, we were assured that several counties including Millard (Fillmore) had lots of ground SAR teams searching the local area. We were contacted on the Facebook page "Prayers for Trista, Shy & Matt" by private folks in that area who had volunteered their services with horses, ATVs & sleds, etc., but they told us that they were told by the county that they were NOT needed because they already had LOTS of search teams. Later, we received unconfirmed reports that SAR teams were not really deployed in that area after all. We really don't know!
7) When family members were contacting the governors & senators of UT & WY requesting National Guard resources such as Black Hawks and ground search teams, they were repeatedly told that it was impractical because the search area was 2400 sq. miles. This was an invalid reason for rejecting those resources, because there was NO evidence that they ever got out of the valley from the Fillmore Airport. Shortly after takeoff, there was one single ping received near Mt. Pleasant -- with NO further contact. On Wednesday, a group of us including off duty pilots and an air traffic controller went over every scrap of evidence or absence there of. We went through EVERY conceivable scenario and our group agreed unanimously that there was NO evidence they ever got out of the valley area. On Wednesday night, I contacted CAP Chaplain Boyd and he verbally agreed with our findings. I insisted that because a severe winter storm was forecast, the governors & National Guard must be contacted immediately to mobilize all appropriate resources for Thursday morning. Black Hawk helicopters would be absolutely critical in searching the local ridges, canyons & ledges before they would be buried by snow! One Utah National Guard Black Hawk made one sortie late Thursday afternoon and reportedly were joined by 2 more on Friday. We are unaware of any National Guard ground search resources being deployed.
Because of our connections with the USAF, Wing Commanders or Command Posts at several bases in the region were contacted. Significant resources such as photo reconnaissance aircraft, rescue helicopters and even unmanned drones were reportedly available but had to be officially requested through channels. We had a friend who works with classified satellite imagery that said they could have helped, but we couldn't get anyone in authority to make the request. That imagery and/or unmanned drones could have focused around the Fillmore area, the mountains just north and east of there, and a few lakes in the area.
9) Idaho Search & Rescue was contacted by family members and they indicated they could provide technical expertise or deploy teams & equipment if officially requested through channels. That option was not chosen.


End Result: The missing plane was found by a Utah DPS helicopter at approx. 8:00 am, Sunday, Dec. 2nd, 2012 -- 11.2 miles east of the Fillmore, UT Airport. The pilot, 2 passengers and 2 dogs did not survive.


The Utah State Medical Examiner in SLC states that the pilot died almost immediately, but his 34 year old girlfriend probably lived 3-4 days. Both of her lower legs were broken, but she eventually died from exposure. He also stated that her 9 year old daughter probably lived for 4-5 days before lying down next to her mother and dying of exposure. Grrrrr! She was relatively uninjured and her tracks were all over the hillside apparently trying to get help. The NTSB Lead Investigator stated a cell phone was found showing that the young girl had been trying to send text messages to her Daddy for help. Grrrr!


I'm sure that there are plenty of officials that feel terrible about this tragedy. But I highly doubt that any one of them would have any idea how horribly the system failed us all in this case. Some of these counties spend a lot of time, effort, and money preparing for SAR missions. We cheapen their dedicated efforts if we don't find the resolve to overcome these critical problems. In honor of our young friends -- we MUST do better and save lives in the future!!!


We will appreciate your efforts to help with this matter. Thank you!

I have been contacted by folks who are NOT happy with my post...... I have deleted the email part and have retained the original in my computer....

Time [/b]will tell how this whole crap plays out..

As presented this is a major failure of systems and a tragedy for all of the families involved.

Godspeed to those no longer with us.

Why is it that it takes a horrible tragedy like this before procedures get improved. If I remember correctly this accident was right on the heals of the accident in Wyoming where CAP issued a 30 plus mile diameter TFR, so they could control the airspace.
This must be horrible for the families left behind.

After reading the whole email, the information about the slow SAR efforts and the particular paragraph about the medical examiner's opinion has me very angry and very sad at the same time.

Flying cross country with no ELT, no spot, no sat phone, no survival gear, no spare radio. Grrr.

This story is why I do this. I also tell the wife, if you don't hear from me by XX:XX time notify my friends on BCP!!!

OregonMaule wrote:

OregonMaule wrote:This be the route. 3.5hr Gas at Silver Springs, 3.5hr at Bermuda Dunes.

Going to launch close to 0730
Watch my back please.
SPOT on
406 PLB in pocket
I'll check in when I have cell coverage.
Hemet Ryan breakfast tomorrow, anyone?? BigJohn
Wolford Lake, iceman?? M7flyer??

Cheers...Rob

Then when I land I do this.

OregonMaule wrote:Down safe KUDD

What ever you do, tell a responsible friend or family where you are going. Get a SPOT and a 406PLB if you fly backcounty mountain routes or out of the way places. Put the 406PLB in your pocket!!!



Cheers...Rob

To think anything that involves multiple government agencies, ngos, volunteers, etc will ever be properly managed, coordinated, or functioning is absurd. Ever heard of FEMA? Unlimited power. Unlimited resources. It will never work correctly because of people - too many egos, too much corruption, too many power plays, too much incompetence, too much fear. That will never change no matter how much we want it to.

Someday should we land where we weren't planning or expecting to, as PIC, our rescue and that of those who put their trust and safety in us is entirely in our hands.

How many of us are flying aircraft with 121.5 ELTs? I'll go ahead and raise my hand. All three of my planes are carrying that useless extra weight. Why? Because I haven't wanted to spend the money to replace them, instead I just put new batteries in them as required by regulation - after all I want to be legal.

Guess at best that makes me a hypocrite. At worst I am part of the problem when I go down and SAR has to come find and save me, causing a huge waste in time, money and resources - and possibly causing the death of myself and my passengers.

Sounds like something I need to address, and I am. Beginning with a survival kit. The first item in my survival kit? A PLB. What an awesome invention. I crash. I turn it on. SAR knows where I am. I get rescued. Pretty friggin cool. And you know what? A whole lot cheaper then trying to fix the SAR system - which is an impossible task anyway.

The rest of my survival kit? I'm still putting that together. It is be based on my level of survival skills and my age, and is portable so I can take it with me on hunting and fishing trips as well, whether by plane or by truck.

And I will start replacing the ELTs in my planes, beginning with my 185 which is the one that is going to the most remote locations. I will remove the S from SAR should I need help someday.

We are fortunate in Alaska that the Alaska State Troopers are the initial point of contact for the public or local agencies. They in turn contact those who come and get you no matter what - Coast Guard or Air National Guard. These people are the finest kind.

CAP is involved when the WX is good enough for them to fly. Honestly I haven't heard anything bad or good about the local CAP. I used to see them doing touch and goes in the Beaver.

So sad for those families. We have to remember in this that no - one wanted them NOT to be found. There was a major breakdown somewhere along the line. Hopefully adjustments will be made and lessons learned.

GB

This event disturbs me on a number of levels. In many ways it could have turned out so much better, for at least some of the passengers. I don't know the details on what preparations the pilot did or did not make for winter flight. The failure of agencies, if true, should be investigated. My reason for posting is more pragmatic though. And if this needs to be moved to the FS category, Z will let me know. I am in a position at work to purchase PLB's at cost. I thought it might be a service to members here to offer them. The model I have a my house is made by Kannad. Model XS-4. I carry one in my pocket on all flights... and even backcountry hiking trips. 406 and GPS. Small and easy. I see they sell online for about 299. I pay 235 each through work... three available at the moment. BCP only and not for resale please. If this price incentive is enough to help our fellow members decide to carry a PLB, I will feel better about maybe not reading sad stories in the press. PM me if interested. And let family know your waypoint list. They, at least, won't drop the ball when you go missing.

This sinks my heart. It's a big sky out there...why would volunteers be denied? A victim managed to live for days along a rational flight path (despite possible unfortunate judgment) through the mountains near the point of departure without discovery. Pilot judgment aside, this could happen in any case, but why would volunteers be turned back? Is this an institutional culture that protects its 'turf', at the expense of its very mission?

The best accountability in sclerotic institutional cultures is embarrassment. That sometimes means naming names. Not only are those kinds of institutions a questionable use of funds, which is the least of the problem, but they occupy an important mission niche for decision makers that prevent other organizations (and capable volunteers) from being more effective.

The best ELT tech out there right now under TSO-C91A still has a 27% 'non-activation' rate. The older ones have a 'non-activation' rate of over 75%. That is stunning, and no better performance can be expected any time soon. Nonetheless, I think the stats indicate that response times for VFR crash sites has not budged one minute from where it was before 406 ELT's were available despite the better activation rates and accuracy. So I think only part of the problem is older ELT tech. The logistic system that uses that information *still* can't show they know how to use that information to reduce response times. I don't think this is a mysterious paradox. It means the performance of the SAR system is not being limited by availability of the latest gear, but probably by SAR logistics.

I still think the best protection is still a clear flight plan that others know about and have been given a clear action plan. The next item is still a SPOT or similar device, and a PLB if so inclined.

gbflyer wrote:We are fortunate in Alaska that the Alaska State Troopers are the initial point of contact for the public or local agencies. They in turn contact those who come and get you no matter what - Coast Guard or Air National Guard. These people are the finest kind.

GB

Actually, for any aviation incident in Alaska, the Alaska Rescue Coordination Center (AKRCC) is the organization that runs avaition SAR. There is a phenomenal level of coordination between the AKRCC, the Alaska State Troopers, and the USCG. They are the three primary agencies that are statutorily responsible for SAR in the State of Alaska. That is how the AK ANG rescuemen, the USCG SAR assets, local responders, CAP, North Slope Borough SAR, and every other agency gets assigned in a SAR case. As with everything, it's different up here, than in the lower 48. And it works well.

I'm usually a lurker here, but I need to speak up. I wanted to puke reading the above narrative. I run SAR missions here in Alaska every day. I have two kids and a wife. When I read about stuff like that, I just can't handle it.

Please, put a 406Mhz ELT in your aircraft. It is the #1 thing you can do to get an immediate and effective SAR response. On any crash, when you ask the remaining family if it would have been worth it for $500 to put one in, you can guess the response. Cut one day out of your flying schedule for the year, pocket the gas money, the $100 hamburger, the ramp fee, and pony up the effort to get a good ELT. Make the connections for your GPS if you can swing it.

For those who are reading this in AK, or who might visit some day: We will come out to your group/organization/trade show/rotary-club/fly-in/poker game/etc and give you the 100% scoop on SAR in Alaska, 406 vs 121.5, Survivor Actions, SPOT/Spider, whatever..

If you want to tour the AKRCC and meet the folks who direct the rescues, send me a PM with your contact information. I'll do my best to set up something. Individuals or groups of folks up to about 8 would be just fine.

Please, help us help you.

Lt Col Karl Westerlund
Director, AKRCC

lesuther wrote:The best ELT tech out there right now under TSO-C91A still has a 27% 'non-activation' rate. The older ones have a 'non-activation' rate of over 75%. That is stunning, and no better performance can be expected any time soon. Nonetheless, I think the stats indicate that response times for VFR crash sites has not budged one minute from where it was before 406 ELT's were available despite the better activation rates and accuracy. So I think only part of the problem is older ELT tech.

I'm curious where those numbers are from. In discussing this with a couple of the engineers who design these things, I was told that the activation switch that actually turns these things on "automatically" is the same switch that's been used in ELTs for years. Is this not correct?

One thing that has changed, though, is that the FAA, because of a couple of high profile accidents, has started leaning on mechanics to actually install the ELTs in accordance with the installation guidelines. One ELT engineer I spoke with noted that 40% of the cases where the ELT failed to activate historically was the direct result of the ELT breaking loose from it's mount, NOT a failure of the switch itself. Perhaps better installations are improving the "success" rate of ELTs?? I replaced the ELT in my airplane with a 406 and my mechanic showed me the previous installation (the new ELT advertised that it would slip right in....and it COULD have, but...) in which the ELT could flex quite a lot....not good, and not acceptable. A much more solid mounting was devised, in compliance with the guidance that's been out there for years, by the way.

So, CHECK your ELT mounting bracket. If the ELT isn't properly mounted, it may be useless in any case. Note that in one high profile accident a little over a year ago, the airplane was equipped with a 406 ELT, but it broke loose from its mount and disconnected from its antenna cable. In other words, the ELT didn't fail....the mounting did.

And if you are installing a 406 ELT, install one that connects to or has an on board GPS. This will expedite location information.

Frankly, I suspect the poor performance numbers regarding ELT activations and response are probably a reflection of just how few pilots have actually switched to 406 ELTs.

A 406 ELT, with GPS connectivity and a PLB are the cheapest best insurance one can have. A SPOT is a really inexpensive adjunct and a comfort factor for family and friends.

MTV

mtv wrote:I'm curious where those numbers are from. In discussing this with a couple of the engineers who design these things, I was told that the activation switch that actually turns these things on "automatically" is the same switch that's been used in ELTs for years. Is this not correct?

Apparently so:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19910001651_1991001651.pdf
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/elt.html

Equipment (like the 406 MHz ELT) can double or triple your chances of your ELT signal being a factor in finding you fast. They still likely leave a 1 in 5 chance that the only way to find a crash in a hurry is by having an alternate means of notification- a flight plan, family, Spot, PLB, etc., *and* a functional SAR system.

http://avstop.com/stories/searchandrescue.htm

Yes, get a 406 ELT. Yes, do plans and family notifications. Yes, use a Spot or whatever. But ultimately, some folks will fail at all of this, and an SAR system needs to work in UT and WY as much as it needs to work effectively elsewhere. Some folks will say, 'Who cares about the folks that don't prepare?'. But it can also happen to someone who does everything right. I can't imagine being a person whose family perished after willing and available resources were turned away.

mtv wrote:One ELT engineer I spoke with noted that 40% of the cases where the ELT failed to activate historically was the direct result of the ELT breaking loose from it's mount, NOT a failure of the switch itself. Perhaps better installations are improving the "success" rate of ELTs?? I replaced the ELT in my airplane with a 406 and my mechanic showed me the previous installation (the new ELT advertised that it would slip right in....and it COULD have, but...) in which the ELT could flex quite a lot....not good, and not acceptable. A much more solid mounting was devised, in compliance with the guidance that's been out there for years, by the way.

Mine was the same. It is more rigidly attached now, but I still wish there was a way to improve the activation stats, like a strain gauge alarm or other other backup to the g-switch.

The ELT in my 170 has a manual switch up front where I can activate it ahead of time if I feel the need to do so is well on its way.

Chris C

lesuther wrote:

mtv wrote:I'm curious where those numbers are from. In discussing this with a couple of the engineers who design these things, I was told that the activation switch that actually turns these things on "automatically" is the same switch that's been used in ELTs for years. Is this not correct?

Apparently so:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19910001651_1991001651.pdf
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/elt.html

Ummmm, actually no. Please READ the NASA report. What it SAYS is that the EXPECTED improvement of FULL transition to the new ELT standard is a change from ~22 % success rate to 75 % success rate.

EXPECTED is a hoped for, not a fait accompli. We ain't there yet.

I asked two different engineers, who work for two different ELT manufacturers why they don't start using some of the solid state accelerometers that are being used in the glass cockpit equipment instead of a stupid tube with a ball bearing and two springs for an activation switch.

Both responded with the same answer: It would cost literally millions of dollars to certify such a switch. How many of those switches aere we going to sell? They both noted that its more difficult to certify a piece of avionics than it is a structural component these days.

Anyone who followed the development and certification timeline on some of these new generation ELTs knows how long it took.

If the FAA really gave a hoot about this stuff, they'd simplify the certification process for REAL life saving equipment. Problem is, the ELT was never the FAAs idea, and the FAA doesn't like "Not invented here".

MTV

I feel for the chaplain, nobody wants to shoulder the blame for something like that even if they're incompetent. Unfortunately, any time an agency has a problem with it's cumbersome procedures, they add another layer. Remember the FEMA report? Can't be fixed-it's f-ed up as a football bat, sh1tcan it. Nope, it's still with us, worse than ever. Reiterated to the wife that if I ever go missing, don't tell CAP.

zenpilot wrote:

gbflyer wrote:We are fortunate in Alaska that the Alaska State Troopers are the initial point of contact for the public or local agencies. They in turn contact those who come and get you no matter what - Coast Guard or Air National Guard. These people are the finest kind.

GB

Actually, for any aviation incident in Alaska, the Alaska Rescue Coordination Center (AKRCC) is the organization that runs avaition SAR. There is a phenomenal level of coordination between the AKRCC, the Alaska State Troopers, and the USCG. They are the three primary agencies that are statutorily responsible for SAR in the State of Alaska. That is how the AK ANG rescuemen, the USCG SAR assets, local responders, CAP, North Slope Borough SAR, and every other agency gets assigned in a SAR case. As with everything, it's different up here, than in the lower 48. And it works well.

I'm usually a lurker here, but I need to speak up. I wanted to puke reading the above narrative. I run SAR missions here in Alaska every day. I have two kids and a wife. When I read about stuff like that, I just can't handle it.

Please, put a 406Mhz ELT in your aircraft. It is the #1 thing you can do to get an immediate and effective SAR response. On any crash, when you ask the remaining family if it would have been worth it for $500 to put one in, you can guess the response. Cut one day out of your flying schedule for the year, pocket the gas money, the $100 hamburger, the ramp fee, and pony up the effort to get a good ELT. Make the connections for your GPS if you can swing it.

For those who are reading this in AK, or who might visit some day: We will come out to your group/organization/trade show/rotary-club/fly-in/poker game/etc and give you the 100% scoop on SAR in Alaska, 406 vs 121.5, Survivor Actions, SPOT/Spider, whatever..

If you want to tour the AKRCC and meet the folks who direct the rescues, send me a PM with your contact information. I'll do my best to set up something. Individuals or groups of folks up to about 8 would be just fine.

Please, help us help you.

Lt Col Karl Westerlund
Director, AKRCC

Thanks for the clarification Karl and for your service. You guys do great work.

Keenan Z. still flying up there for ANG?

mtv wrote:Ummmm, actually no. Please READ the NASA report. What it SAYS is that the EXPECTED improvement of FULL transition to the new ELT standard is a change from ~22 % success rate to 75 % success rate.

Oh I did, and then some. I was using the links in reference to your comment that the basic G-switch effectiveness has not really changed in a long time. The NASA report used test data and forward estimates. The AOPA link refers to "actual crashes", which I might take to mean just that.

I've used a variety of solid state sensors for my work, and the filtering required for reliable aviation use may or may not be something to hand wave. I can easily get a 100G analog signal out of many small SS units sitting on my desk with a fast analyzer just by closing the door in my office, for example. It's an engineering problem, but a PSD profile needs to be agreed upon and published. The mfr manuals are hopeless (and wrong), and I don't feel like shelling out for the RTCA specification to see if a PSD or other meaningful description even exists.

One angle might be to offer an uncertified ELT that actually *works* in addition to the certified ELT that clearly does not. Sort of a Spot/PLB with good automated activation.

gbflyer wrote:

zenpilot wrote:

gbflyer wrote:Keenan Z. still flying up there for ANG?

Yeah, for sure. PM Sent.

KW