I read through the crosswind landing techniques here and all were very useful techniques. The one that reminded me of a technique I teach was the cub landing into the wind. This technique is possible in most single engine land airplanes, if we make the approach slow enough (entirely possible into a strong crosswind.)

Too often in the desert and mountain west, I have witnessed experienced pilots run out of rudder on multiple approaches. They would either chance going to the next nearest airport with both fuel and different runway direction or just prang it in fast down the single runway.

I teach all landings using the apparent brisk walk rate of closure and full flaps, but slow is the key. Even with significant gust spread, why do so many pilots increase airspeed and reduce flaps so much? We are into a strong cross and head wind so the ground speed problem is solved. Why would we give away that free energy by speeding up? Dynamic throttle movement controls even significant gust spread with full flaps.

When we run out of rudder, we can simply drift down wind until our directed course lines up the downwind corner of the runway with the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking. Better, we can make our base to final into the crosswind and stop the turn when the downwind corner of the runway lines up with the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking. This gives us 1,000' feet of runway into a strong headwind/crosswind. With power to control descent angle and elevator to control ground speed (don't let it,ground speed, get too fast,) we can touch down on the very downwind corner and roll out to the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking. No brakes or Cub necessary. With a fast single engine land airplane, we will be slow enough at the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking to turn down the runway (keep the aileron full into the wind.)

I tried to teach this technique to a fellow pipeline patrol pilot when flying for Brentco out of Durango. He was a retired airline pilot and just couldn't make the jump to crawl speed. He crashed after several attempts to land on the Front Range in a strong crosswind. He and the pipeline employ with him were killed.

I use the lights. From one side to the other 3 lights down is 600 feet. Fly it to the nearest exit to parking, half flaps and half the gust speed over and kerplunk. I fly a skylane though, pretty tame. Would not consider a full flap landing in guaty conditions.

Sounds like that would work. Full Fowler flaps with a Cessna is a bear, but I really like the control. I forgot to mention that one has to be careful not to wack off high lights. Unless a tower has traffic behind you, they don't care how you land. They get fussy when you break the landing lights.

How do you handle this "throttle-jockying" when flying larger, higher powered engines? Just do it and wear the consequences...? Or do you take a more energy-conservation centric approach and fly faster - or maybe cruise in 5kts faster and slow in the last 100ft? What is your method for engine management in that situation?

If I were buying, I didn't buy big engines or expensive airplanes. We had some 182s on the pipeline patrol. That big Continental and 235 to 260 hp Lycomings in Pawnees and Call Airs worked fine. 250 Comanche was good. 450 hp Stearman was fine ($10,000 in 1982.) C-180, owned by spray outfit I worked for, was fine. Leach, at Center, CO, had a new C-182RJ that worked fine. The most I ever paid for an airplane was $15,000 for a Luscombe in 2006. AA1B was small engine but slick and hard to slow down. Instructed in that and C-140 for Fred Shotenboer in Monte Vista summers while wife worked on masters at Adams State in Alamosa. First instruction job was at Flagstaff in AA1A in 1974. Ercoupe $1340 and Tri-Pacers $5600 and $6500 and Colt $4500 worked very well. Champ $2700 was a nada. The gearbox on the C-175 $10,000 clattered a lot but worked fine. Paid $12,500 for my Call Air A9B in 1994. Good airplane. I didn't like the company 600 hp Air Tractor, but it worked. Airplane was too fast for spraying. I didn't like the company P%W 750 hp PT6-27 Ag Cat because the engine and prop were so expensive. Was afraid to jocky the prop, might back up. I could get the same work done with two Pawnees just as fast for one forth the purchase, fuel, and maintenance. I'm a little airplane guy.

I tried to teach this technique to a fellow pipeline patrol pilot when flying for Brentco out of Durango. He was a retired airline pilot and just couldn't make the jump to crawl speed. He crashed after several attempts to land on the Front Range in a strong crosswind. He and the pipeline employ with him were killed.

Another good reason why pipeline pilots should be a one-man show.

I don't think you can teach this stuff. You just pick it up.

It is easy to teach young zero timers who want to spray. It is easier to teach first time around. It is harder to re-program second career guys who have flown big airplanes.

I logged in today thinking of starting a new topic on crosswind landings, seems this one will do!

I'm currently training for my PPL, just started leaving the circuit solo about 4 hours ago. Yeah, I'm green, with 36 hours in my book, and 20 of those we're within the last year.

Yesterday, coming back from a solo cross country practise, I had the worst landing so far. I'll spare you the details, but I sure am thankful for the 200 foot wide runway I was at. In the summer, the flight school operates from a private 2200x35 strip, which in my opinion, trains a better pilot. The bigger runway is only 10 nm away and a valid option if the private airport is outside your comfort zone.

Contact, you're slanted approach and landing seems like a great way to knock off +- 10 degrees of crosswind. I'd just like to know if anyone here would have tips on learning techniques to improve my crosswind landings. Seems like I'm still having trouble with cross-controls for a forward slip. Cross-controlling is something that I haven't had a lot of exposure too, have only practised side slips when doing forced approaches. Would doing some cross-control practise at altitude help?

Currently training on a 172, which will take some boched up landings. But my goal is to own a taildragger one day, and it seems the cessna might be making me lazy in the feet

Just looking for any opinion, and know that I will not just try anything I read on the internet. It would be discussed and performed with an instructor first, with their blessing.

-Franck

Franck,
I do a lot of slips in my plane. The way I finally nailed the slip was at altitude. I put in full rudder, then adjusted my angle and altitude with the stick. This seemed to help me get the feel of both the forward and side slip. I only had one control to consentrate on.

I've done a whale of a lot of severe crosswind landings--learned and taught at Laramie in 172s and 182s in the late 70s and early 80s. I much prefer no flap or 10 flap at most, with airspeed at 1.3 Vso, plus half any gust factor. I firmly believe that there is more rudder control with the slightly higher airspeed and without the barndoors hanging out. I have landed both 172s and 182s with a 30 knot crosswind component, though that takes just about all the airplane will give. Most recently, the most severe wind I've landed my P172D in was a 25 knot direct crosswind at Hardin, MT, a couple of years ago on an Angel Flight from KAPA to Hardin, which was made tricky by the buildings and grain elevators just across the highway from the runway, and a relatively narrow runway.

Cary

On a crosswind day, fly the entire length of the runway at less than 10 feet agl, keeping it aligned with rudder and in the air with sufficient power to prevent the landing. When you feel you can do that, then do the same exercise, but drag one, and only one, tire while maintaining a perfectly straight ground track before going around, again you will need to nurse the power to make sure you continue flying even though you are dragging a wheel. Finally, land. It will probably be pretty easy to land at that point.

Practice makes perfect, so at only 35 hours, you just haven't had the practice, yet. The only way to learn is to do it--reading here or elsewhere will tell you what to do, but so much of learning it is just doing it. Don't let your feet get lazy--that's just an excuse. It may be more forgiving than a tail dragger, but even a 172 wants to be landed straight with the runway, without skittering sideways across the runway. Side load its landing gear enough, and it'll break off--seriously.

Cary

There is really no reason in the world to make every landing a full flap, max performance short field landing.

In small Cessnas, the only thing you gain by landing in a 20+ crosswind with anything approaching full flaps is an idea of what it is like to land in much, much stronger 30+ crosswinds with the flaps reduced or retracted fully and at a higher airspeed.

In other words, using flaps in gusty crosswinds is fun and sporty on blustery days, but hardly necessary or helpful. With full flaps in a 182, I run out of rudder as the xwinds hover around 25. Without flaps, and with the extra airspeed, 30+ still has quite a bit of room in the pedals when it is time to plant the upwind main on the pavement. Yes, you use up more runway, but it's a *lot* more comfortable for passengers, and you'll still get stopped in less runway than you'll need to take off again in the Cessna anyways...so it's not an issue of being runway length limited usually anyways.

In a severe crosswind, I like to go from 20 to 40 flaps on very short final and drop the flaps immediately upon touchdown (full stall), every severe gusty wind landing is different! If you don't have the ponies under the cowling, don't get behind the power curve, a whipping gusty direct crosswind often goes to a whipping gusty quartering tailwind. Find yourself with 40 flaps on the edge of a stall when that 30-40 knot gusty wind flips tailwind on you and then it gets really fun

Most backcountry planes can land in a severe headwind in a couple plane lengths or less, so...turn into the wind

Personally, I prefer to land as short as possible in strong winds. Where I fly the winds are wild and change dramatically, coupled with powerful thermals and high DA's. If you land hot (faster than normal) in these conditions, it can be really bad!!!

It is easy to teach young zero timers who want to spray. It is easier to teach first time around. It is harder to re-program second career guys who have flown big airplanes.

Yeah, you're probably right. We probably have different things in mind with "severe". I think of nasty stop/start gusts billowing over trees and small hills and you specified "out west/desert stuff", which is more constant and predictable and actually a pretty good place to learn. I guess I should add I did learn a lot of flying stuff over the web initially and on the phone for my specific plane. But i can only digest small sentences i suppose so putting the fight verse nature into words is hard to digest. Do you give BFRs?

To follow Cary's comment about keeping the feet busy.
My observation of landings gone bad for low time pilots is "going static" on the controls. Seems like some pilots get to a position somewhere above the runway and then just hold the controls static and wait. In gusty conditions... ALL the controls.... including throttle and sometimes brakes, will likely be in motion until tied down. Call it dancing with the wind... call it something else.
It is hard to teach in the normal sense... because the dynamics of the situation are occuring faster than the instructor can talk. I once had a lady student drink a couple of margaritas... prior to a gusty day lesson. She got loose... danced with the plane and did really well. She was much too stiff and tight before. It mostly comes from tension and fear.
I notice flying a helo, if I am tense or sore... my control is crappy that day. Ever notice how veteran helo pilots are way laid back and loose?
(not suggesting the mixed drink idea for others... just worked for me as I was hunting for a solution)
Anyway, curse the wind and keep trying.

I think one of the more difficult landings I can recall in the last few years was at Millard near Omaha on an Angel Flight, with the wind gusting straight across the runway but changing direction from a slight quartering headwind to a slight quartering tailwind. I don't recall the windspeed specifically, but I think it was in the 25 G 35 range. Anyhow, I warned my passenger that "this is going to be a screwy looking landing".

Millard has only 12/30. I planned 12, as the wind from roughly 030-040 seemed to favor that more than 30, but it was not a clear choice. A Baron ahead of us already in the pattern for 12 decided at the last minute to change runways for 30, then exited the area altogether to go land at Eppley, which has multiple runways. I continued in for 12, and because of the gusts coming over the trees, it really was a squirrely approach. It's a 3800' runway, plenty wide, so I didn't use any flaps, but because of the higher gusts, I purposely didn't set down immediately, in order to take advantage of the lower end of the gusts. So I used up probably 1000-1200' in the air, waiting to touch down until the airplane was straight and centered, feet dancing, yoke moving a lot, jockeying the throttle until the ideal touchdown time occurred. It worked out just fine, and we touched down softly exactly as we should. But it was a lot of work.

Taxiing was even more work, very slowly, using full opposite rudder and brake to counter act the winds trying to weathervane the airplane.

The next day when I was preparing to depart, the airport manager came up to the airplane and asked if I was leaving the area, because he was closing the airport due to the high winds, which were the same as I had landed in the day before.

This isn't a brag post--but just points out the details of how significant winds have to be handled. It's a constant effort, no giving up, no "letting" things happen. You must stay in control 100% of the time, until the airplane is stopped. Sometimes you'll need help with the taxiing, using wing-walkers to keep the upwind wing down in a direct crosswind. And of course, you have to be pretty careful if the wind is behind you to maintain full down elevator, so that it doesn't pick the airplane up and somersault it.

But again, you can't learn to handle winds by reading about it--you have to do it.

Cary

Cary wrote:But again, you can't learn to handle winds by reading about it--you have to do it.

Yup. I was lucky. I had a CFI while doing my PPL that also believed the above. We would seek airports to train at with gradually increasing crosswinds until I eventually become proficient and comfortable (not always the same thing!). Now I find myself climbing that same ramp with the Maule. I know I'll get there one day.

I'm an odd ball.....

I figure the goal in landing is to come to a stop, and since my truck drives a whole lot nicer than my airplane, I reserve
wheeled travel for the truck and winged travel for the airplane... consequently I use full flaps 99.9% of the time. I'd say all the time, but somewhere along the way I must have not used full flaps, I dunno.. maybe when they were broken?... If it's really snotty I will probably delay going full till really short final, like skalywag, and I pretty much always dump them immediately after touch down.

Want a good reason to use full flaps all the time? easy... because you are only as good at any maneuver, as your proficiency in that maneuver, consequently if you never land full flapped in the wind you don't get to use that option when you need it

Extreme crosswinds? I figure if it's 30+ at 90* I'm probably landing the wrong way, because in all the little GA bushbeaters I've flown, 30+ wind will allow for landing angled across the strip at any airport I've come across. Landing off airport? just land at a patch pointed the correct direction... think about it, with 30+ on the nose a cub is going to land in 5'-10', and a full gross C-180 is going to land in 100'+/-.

My $.02 and it probably ain't worth that much

You're right Rob. Things just don't get torn up as much going slow. Nothing to damage us up in the air, lots on the ground. We need to control ground speed on touchdown. Stringing it out to have good rudder control doesn't give good rudder control when slow, air or ground. A power/pitch approach with full flaps controls ground speed while pushing lots of air past the rudder. Full flaps in gusts require throttle control. In really rough wind conditions, we will need the extra control of the throttle. Closing the throttle because we are going so fast gives up this important control. If we have creeped up to the desired touchdown point with lots of power, we will touch down with power and close the throttle when we are on the surface at a very slow ground speed. I was asleep at the wheel a time or two and went backwards in my Champ. We have to be careful about this with a nose gear. We have to push forward to quit going backwards.

For the low time pilot with the question about normal crosswind technique, it helps to separate the controls in our mind. It is like rubbing our tummy while patting our head. On the crosswind landing the aileron is used only to prevent the airplane from drifting downwind. The only reason for moving the ailerons is to adjust bank angle in gusts. In a steady 40 kt crosswind, the wing should be set into the wind (side slip) and locked there. I use a stiff thumb to jam the wheel or stick. When the student tries to use the aileron, the wheel or stick jams against my thumb. He looks over at me and I say, "lock the wing down, don't move the aileron." The rudder pedals are only used to make the longitudinal axis of the airplane go straight down the center line or optical straight line using a distant point. There is no coordination at this time. Coordinated turns just cause us to dynamically waddle too far left of directed course, too far right of directed course, etc. Go out to the airport and watch airplanes wallow in with no wind.

Once we have the wing locked down and only adjusted for gust spread, we just walk the rudder down the center line. Piece of cake in any crosswind. If we run out of rudder, we have to angle our new directed course into the wind a bit, or a lot. If you get into tail wheel airplanes and land them fast, you will total the airplane when you ground loop. If you land slow, the ground loop will not catch the wing and will only be embarrassing. Since I teach only slow landings, I can afford to allow my students to takeoff and land very early in their training.

There is a point, in either takeoff or landing a tail wheel airplane, beyond the point of no return. Most instructors and operators, because of the cost of fabric work nowdays, do not allow students to discover learn this thing. This is why they require ten hours now days for a transition. I soloed all young tail wheel students in less than ten hours. I also flew junk and crop duster operations have good fabric people.

I don't know who was being asked about bi-annuals. I don't have the legs for it any more. All SEL airplanes, except Ercoupe, have adverse yaw problems. In all SEL airplanes, except Ercoupe, when we turn the wheel or stick right without rudder, the nose goes left initially. In all SEL airplanes, except Ercoupe, when we turn aggressively to miss things and especially when we try to bring the wing back up, we have to aggressively use the rudder.

Obviously, I don't teach for the practical test. Do what your instructor says until you get your papers. If you wish to learn other stuff, I have taught lots of instructors. I can give you some names. Not all of them have papers. But after the license, or not, papers are not so important. Two of my best crop duster students, brothers, had no paper.