This is a video of a landing I made in west liberty kentucky. Believe it or not, this was actually quite the challenge for me. It was my first time landing there, the runway is 2,400ft long (shortest I've landed on), and it's quite uphill.

I know some of you will be laughing at this, but you got to start somewhere please critique and let me know your thoughts. Keep in mind I only had about 6 hours of tailwheel PIC at that point. I've been flying for a little less than a year. In other words I have a lot to learn.

Self critiques... approached way to fast. Need to anticipate the earth coming up at me a little better on uphill landings. And I have since learned to push forward on the yoke even on three pointers to be a little nicer to my tailwheel. Runway length wasn't a problem so I could have raised the tail a little while slowing the plane down.

Hope you enjoy....

https://youtu.be/F7zvEdVfR-E



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I don't know that I'd call it a "bad" landing (your title on your video), but it could be improved in several ways. You got it down, you didn't run out of runway, you didn't ground loop, and the airplane is still usable.

The most important thing, as you've already determined, is slow down. You're a good 10 knots or more too fast, based on 2 things, the video's GPS speed (I can't read your ASI) and the amount of float. I don't have any experience in 170s, but lots in 172s, and their V speeds are neck and neck. With the light weight of just yourself, I'd guess that your safe approach speed could be 65 mph (not knots, mph). So here's my suggestion: get up in the air, away from any airport or airway, and practice mock landing descents at the correct airspeed with different notches of flaps--and as your instructor would tell you, be sure to trim for that airspeed. Get a feel for the angles of descent, in a safe environment.

It looked like you were slipping to get down, after your comment that you were too high. The trouble with slips is that most people find that they suddenly speed up as soon as they straighten out--and it looked to me like that happened to you, too. My suggestion: raise the nose instead, when you're too high and that far out. As you come back on the airspeed by doing that, the airplane will start to sink faster. I couldn't tell if you had all your flaps lowered, but the combination of a properly slow airspeed and full flaps will bring down most Cessnas like they're elevators.

And keep practicing! None of us is so good that we can't be better.

Cary

Yes. Too much airspeed on approach and especially short final has become the norm with nose geared airplanes. Until the tail swaps ends, the tailwheel airplane doesn't care so much either. When we are distracted and the tail does go beyond the recoverable point, a slow touchdown ground speed can make the ground loop only an embarrassing or learning situation rather than an expensive one.

We all have many hours of automobile driving time. A common problem is making small coordinated turns to line up on final. You are learning to use rudder only on the surface on takeoff and landing. Carry that on into initial climb and especially onto approach and landing. By using rudder only for longitudinal alignment, departure, approach, and especially landing, we remove adverse yaw from the list of considerations. Also, this gets the feet ready for the dynamic proactive rudder movement on the surface. Unfortunately this is a small thing until the wind gets gusty. Avoiding wind keeps it in the dark background. And then one day the banking for longitudinal alignment becomes a nightmare.

Hey, I've done worse! I would say that your "angled" final approach leg makes judging your glide path and rate of closure a bit more of a challenge when you're new to the airplane. I could not tell if the terrain made it impossible to do a normal "square turn" from base-to-final, but doing so would make your sight picture more consistent.

When slipping, most people tend to let the nose get low, and thus when they stop slipping, they are suddenly way too fast. Since my plane has no flaps, I try to slip a bit earlier, so that I'm on a "normal" glide path well before time to start the flare. Seemed like you were just coming out of the slip when it was time to start the flare.

As both Cary and the other Jim (ContactFlying) pointed out, your extra speed caused you to float a good ways down the runway. It looked like you were aiming at the numbers, but your first touchdown point was the fourth stripe, and your actual "landing" point was 2 stripes further down. Assuming standard runway markings, the stripes are 120 feet long, with 80 feet in between. That means that your extra airspeed carried you at least 800' down the runway before your first touchdown point, then you used nearly another 400' getting the airplane firmly established on the runway. That's half of the total 2400' runway length... So even though it's a 2400' runway, you were really only "using" about 1200 feet of it. No wonder there was some "pucker factor" for you!

So I would suggest you practice what ContactFlying suggested. Then, when you're feeling good about that, go practice getting in and out of your slips... First, climb to a safe altitude, and practice the maneuvers in your approach configuration (flaps, reduced power, etc.) just as though you were going to land (but at 3000' or more AGL). Find yourself a straight stretch of road that is oriented perpendicular to the winds aloft. This represents your runway with a crosswind, so try to keep your plane lined up with it throughout the maneuver. Then practice getting into and out of your slip configuration, concentrating on keeping your airspeed nailed throughout the maneuver. Do this while flying along the road in both directions, so you are practicing both "left" and "right" crosswind slips. Get used to the control inputs required to maintain your airspeed, so you don't "dump the nose" when coming out of the slip during the real thing...

When you get good at that, I think you'll find that it helps prevent you from "diving" on short final when you ease out of the slip, which will help prevent that 'floating down the runway in ground effect" feeling.

Nice video, and I respect your willingness to post it for critique. They say that your pilot certificate is really a license to learn, and that you only stop learning when you quit flying... I'd say that's true. Stay safe!

Yes, you were a bit fast, but that's just a detail.....and easy to fix. In any case, plenty of runway, so no harm, unless you were trying for a spot landing. Lots of practice on spot landings will "fix" that "problem".

But, that's not what spooked me. Watch that video, and keep an eye on your yokes as you touch down.... You're allowing the yoke to come forward on each bounce. That WILL bite you at some point if you allow it to continue. Once you're down, and you're trying to keep it down, pull that yoke all the way to the aft stop, and hold it there. DO NOT allow it to come off that stop, once the tailwheel is on the ground. Once the tailwheel is on the ground, you want to use it to both stabilize and steer, and it can't do that if you're allowing it to bounce up and down.

And, I don't think you were actually trying to chase the bounces, but that's a REALLY bad plan, and what was going on there has almost the same effect.

Otherwise, you kept it straight and controlled it. Plenty of runway remaining once you stopped, so that should give you some notion of where you're at there. But, for now, every landing should be a spot landing. Pick your spot, and try your best to hit it, every time, at landing speed, of course. Once you get the hang of that, and it takes a while, shorter runways will be a piece of cake.

Nice looking airplane.

MTV

One more thing I noticed in the video... It looks like your anti-collision light is off (or inop). You might want to check that. (I know - not why you posted, but hey... I'd want to know if it was my plane and I thought it was working!)

Thanks for all the replies. You all are awesome. The GOOD advice is exactly what I need. I would hate to be practicing and repeating bad techniques.

And I have been listening to all the comments, my videos just usually lag about 3 weeks behind. Since my previous video, I've flown three times. All the flights were with friends, and one was a business lunch. So not much practice. I have been approaching much slower and that has helped A LOT! I try for 65MPH on final trying to be about a 500 fpm descent. I pull her up to about 60MPH on short final. Over the number I bump in a little power, and round out. The stall warning starts chirping as soon as I round out, which it was definitely not doing before.

I definitely need to go practice these descents at altitude, and I'll probably slow it down all the way to stall, just so I get a feel for where the stall is. This will probably be my next flight.

And then do a lot of pattern work and try to tighten things up.

Thanks again for all the help.

JP256 wrote:One more thing I noticed in the video... It looks like your anti-collision light is off (or inop). You might want to check that. (I know - not why you posted, but hey... I'd want to know if it was my plane and I thought it was working!)

Yeah I guess I forgot to turn it on :/ it works when the flappy paddle thing on dashboard is pushed down.

I have been having some battery problems, especially when I have a long taxi, the battery has failed me on two start ups since I've owned the plane.

Airplaneflyer wrote:I have been having some battery problems, especially when I have a long taxi, the battery has failed me on two start ups since I've owned the plane.

Does your airplane have a generator, or an alternator? Mine has a generator, and doesn't make enough juice to recharge the battery until I'm well above idle. If yours is a generator, and you experience a similar issue you can either operate a bit above idle (just enough to get the generator to make electricity) or replace the generator with an alternator. I'm cheap, so I just open the throttle a bit to where my alternator (barely) shows a charge.

JP256 wrote:

Airplaneflyer wrote:I have been having some battery problems, especially when I have a long taxi, the battery has failed me on two start ups since I've owned the plane.

Does your airplane have a generator, or an alternator? Mine has a generator, and doesn't make enough juice to recharge the battery until I'm well above idle. If yours is a generator, and you experience a similar issue you can either operate a bit above idle (just enough to get the generator to make electricity) or replace the generator with an alternator. I'm cheap, so I just open the throttle a bit to where my alternator (barely) shows a charge.

When I bought my airplane, it had a generator, and otherwise ancient electrics. It was actually fortuitous that the engine came apart only 15 hours later, because otherwise I'd have likely postponed converting to an alternator--I had that done as part of the new engine installation. Believe me, it was one of the better expenses! In addition to the conversion, my IA created a subpanel and installed circuit breakers, getting rid of most of the fuses.

Likewise, mine wouldn't charge below about 1300 rpm, and even then, it was anemic. But the alternator puts out a nearly full charge at low idle, which is about 850 rpm (although I normally idle the airplane at 1000 rpm). A long taxi (generator) without any charging will deplete a battery awfully quickly. Lights dim, radios go inop, and the next time you go to fly, the battery is dead.

With the original Skylane I was partnered in, with a generator, it wasn't unusual at night to land after shooting an approach, and about halfway into the ramp, the radios would start shutting down (they were tube type Narcos), and by the time I was at the ramp, the lights were dim. So I got into the practice of shutting off the landing light right after touchdown and all the avionics individually, and if there weren't any other airplanes nearby, shutting off the taxi light as long as I could see OK.

So give strong consideration to converting to an alternator. It's really worth it. My alternator (which I think is a 65 amp--could be 60, but I'm not sure) is good enough that I can have everything turned on (all lights, all avionics, heated pitot, heated AOA probe) and still it shows a charge, even at 1000 rpm. I just don't worry about it.

Cary

To answer both or you... Yes I have the generator in there. And everything is anemic for sure. I also turn everything off when I pull off the runway... and if I'm worried about it, I'll do a little run up before I shut down to charge the battery for the next start.

I am actually getting the alternator and a lightweight starter priced out to see if I can afford it. So it sounds like I'm going in the right direction.

Airplaneflyer wrote:To answer both or you... Yes I have the generator in there. And everything is anemic for sure. I also turn everything off when I pull off the runway... and if I'm worried about it, I'll do a little run up before I shut down to charge the battery for the next start.

I am actually getting the alternator and a lightweight starter priced out to see if I can afford it. So it sounds like I'm going in the right direction.

You won't be sorry.

In my college days, I bought a new 1962 Volkswagen beetle, which had a similarly anemic generator. Passing on what I learned back then, you can't charge the battery very quickly--it takes awhile, if you've let it run down. So what I would do is turn off the lights at each stop, keep the engine revved enough to charge, and keep an eye on the after market amp meter I had installed. Before shutting down, I'd keep it revved for awhile. If by revving it up, the needle wouldn't move much above the neutral position, then I knew the battery was pretty much charged.

Cary

Mostly I just propped and didn't use the radio. My binder (International) pickup had a crank. I think VW did too back then.

contactflying wrote:Mostly I just propped and didn't use the radio. My binder (International) pickup had a crank. I think VW did too back then.

Can't say for sure about the early VW Bugs, but the '51 VW "van" we had (what they called a "Combi" in Brazil) did not have a crank. I think the engine was rated at something like 34 HP, but ours had almost 500,000 km on it, with no idea if/when it had ever been rebuilt. I suspect it was making well under 20 HP...

With me, my dad, and my little brother pushing it, we could turn over the motor to push-start it from a standing start with the clutch engaged, even on level ground, then run catch up with it and jump in... (Starter was broken for a while there...) I'm guessing that the compressions were just a little bit below "standard"... Of course, there were also a couple of roads up in the hills where we had to have everyone get out, and turn the Combi around, and use Reverse gear (and sometimes a few of us pushing it) to get up the steepest parts. That was quite the car!

Shortly after we got rid of the Combi and got a "real" car as the family car, my dad also bought a 1919 Ford Model T just for fun. I think he paid something like $100 for it. The bodywork was not very original - a lot of angle irons welded to the frame with thin steel plates welded to the angle irons. No top at all. And all the seats had wooden slats (like a park bench, but less comfortable). That one definitely had a crank! And it was quite a workout to get it going!

When we first got it, the hood was long since missing, and it had a carburetor with a "sunken" float. So when we went anywhere, I had to lay on the running board, with one hand on the fuel shutoff valve (on the "firewall", right below the fuel filter) and turn it off when gas began overflowing out of the carburetor, then turn it back on when the engine began sputtering. After my Mom caught us doing that and decreed "No riding on the running board!", we had to go find a tractor carb that would fit (no Model T parts in Brazil). In a stroke of good luck, the ancient tractor we cannibalized also had four "good" spark plugs that fit the T's engine. After installing the "new" carb and the "new" plugs, it started and ran a LOT better. I tell you, it felt positively "regal" to sit in the passenger seat while Dad drove the "T".