Not sure if this is the right room for the question but I'll give it a try. Here's the deal. I recently moved to an area where one of my favorite destinations in my (59 172 equipped with 0360 A1A) are a group of islands that are only 10-15 minute flight from my home field. Thus, if I just go straight to my destination and land I am wondering if I am getting the engine warm enough to burn off moisture in the oil, etc... I read somewhere that you should fly the plane for at least 30 minutes to really get it warm enough. I do fly the plane quite often (usually at least weekly) and I do go other places that are over 30 minutes, but for the most part I am flying out to one of the San Juan islands that are very near. On one hand it is so great that I live in an area where some great flying destinations are so close. But am I doing my engine harm by taking so many short flights? Is there something I can do to mitigate the problem (if it is a problem)? Is it really a problem to make very short flights if I am still doing a longer one every so often? There must be others out there who have this "problem". As usual, any input is appreciated.

You won't be doing the engine any actual harm, but yeah you probably won't heat up the oil enough to clean it up either. It's got to be beautiful flying, why not simply do some sight seeing for an extra 20 minutes every couple weeks to make sure you get things toasty warm?

I dunno where you're based, but I'm out of Jefferson County and I do a lot of those 20 minute flights myself-- often over to Arlington for lunch, or quite often just over to Oak Harbor where a buddy of mine is based. That's an even shorter flight, usually .4 or .5 on the tach for the round-trip. The oil temp gauge seems to get up to a reasonable place even on these short flights, so I don't worry about it.
So make an occasional longer trip-- I just flew up to Concrete and walked down to the burger place at Hwy 20 for lunch. Flew down to Bremerton for lunch the day before-- I don't usually get down that way for some reason, but the food's really good and reasonably priced so I plan to go more often I've also heard good things about "The Hub" at Tacoma Narrows, they've been in operation for a couple years but I admit that I've never eaten there. Gotta do something about that. The "hundred dollar hamburger" flight is a cliché, but it's as good a reason as any to fly somewhere instead of just boring holes in the sky.

rw2 wrote:You won't be doing the engine any actual harm, but yeah you probably won't heat up the oil enough to clean it up either. It's got to be beautiful flying, why not simply do some sight seeing for an extra 20 minutes every couple weeks to make sure you get things toasty warm?

Well, actually I do just that. A lot of my flights are quite short 10-20 minutes actual flying time. However, at least every 10 days or so I go longer 30-60 minutes and get it truly warmed up. So, I'm guessing as long as I do get in a longer flight every so often it isn't really doing any harm to mix in those short flights that don't get things warmed up to specs on a given day.

hotrod180 wrote:I dunno where you're based, but I'm out of Jefferson County and I do a lot of those 20 minute flights myself-- often over to Arlington for lunch, or quite often just over to Oak Harbor where a buddy of mine is based. That's an even shorter flight, usually .4 or .5 on the tach for the round-trip. The oil temp gauge seems to get up to a reasonable place even on these short flights, so I don't worry about it.
So make an occasional longer trip-- I just flew up to Concrete and walked down to the burger place at Hwy 20 for lunch. Flew down to Bremerton for lunch the day before-- I don't usually get down that way for some reason, but the food's really good and reasonably priced so I plan to go more often I've also heard good things about "The Hub" at Tacoma Narrows, they've been in operation for a couple years but I admit that I've never eaten there. Gotta do something about that. The "hundred dollar hamburger" flight is a cliché, but it's as good a reason as any to fly somewhere instead of just boring holes in the sky.

I am out of Bellingham KBLI. I have been into Jefferson County a few times. I have also been up to Concrete many times. For a back woodsy airport Concrete has quite a collection of airplanes based up there in them thar hills. If you have never seen Harold Hansen's (deceased) collection that are hangared in the big hangar on the east end front row (with upstairs apartment) it is well worth the effort. The full time on site restorer (Jim) is usually there working on something in the hangar behind the big one and is always glad to let a visitor take a look around. Put that on your bucket list next time you go for that $100 hamburger, which is the best value in burgers IMHO. How many people out there would like to be flying their own plane to go get lunch?

Back on topic, I don't think I'll worry about it (short flights) too much as long as I mix in a 30-60 minute (or longer) flight every so often. I'll look at it as needed maintenance. I fly the San Juan's a lot. If your ever up this way and see a 59 172 (white with black and silver striping), come over and say hello. Thanks, John

I'm on the Texas coast, so I imagine we have similar concerns as far as the environment we're flying in, regarding humidity levels and the salty air. I always try to fly a minimum of an hour, with the first 20-30 mins at higher power settings, at least 3 times a week. Of course I'm in a Cub, so it takes that long to get somewhere anyway. My engine stays clean with very little moisture buildup or valve issues. This was confirmed when we tore it down for an overhaul this year (crack in crankcase) and there was very little abnormal wear or corrosion/rust after 28 years and 1300 hrs since it was last opened up.

The Cub hangared next to me is typically flown 20-30 mins at a time, and mostly doing pattern work. They are constantly fighting sticky valves and a good bit of moisture showing on the dipstick. I dumped a good bit of MMO in the oil and gas at one point this summer and ran the snot out of it for a couple hours, made a huge difference with how it ran and the owner was pleased with a simple fix, yet continued to fly in the same manner and had issues again within 5 hrs or so. Old habits die hard I guess.

I'm in a drier climate than you are, but I share your concerns (and your model engine). So although my flights would be shorter, I very often go out and just fly around for awhile. Climbing up a couple thousand feet higher will heat up the engine moreso than just flying around at the same altitude, too. 3/4 of an hour seems to get mine up to a good solid higher temp.

Cary

Cam Guard is your friend.

Mountain Doctor wrote:Cam Guard is your friend.

Camguard is the prescription if you can't fly frequently. If you are regularly going a couple weeks between flights then you should use it. The OP says he flies at least weekly, so Camguard wouldn't provide him any value.

Camguard provides some corrosion protection for the camshaft and other internal engine components.

The possible risk of short flights is not burning off moisture from the oil.

The risk of the moisture is corrosion.

Therefore (seems to me at least) Camguard would be indicated to reduce the risk of corrosion due to short flights.

Thanks for all the input.

FWIW,

I remember talking with a Continental engine rep years ago. He spoke of running the motor at least 20 to 25 minutes every couple a weeks to get rid of moisture and drain it every three months of so to get rid acid buildup in the oil. It has been awhile and things might have changed since then.

Jim

For starters, I think it’s far better to wear an engine out prematurely than to not fly when and where you want. That said…

I see two issues. One is that you might not be getting the oil hot enough for long enough to burn off the water your engine is condensing. The second is that a much larger percentage of your flight time is taking place when the engine is cool, which is when most of the wear occurs. It’s an over simplification, but the worst thing you can do to a engine is start it, and the second worst thing you can do to an engine is stop it.

I think an hour on the tach comprised of multiple flights that aren’t long enough to cook off the moisture in the oil would be equivalent in engine wear to 20 or more hours of cross country flying. That’s just a random number picked for juxtaposition of course, but you know what I mean.

Are you in a hangar? If so I think the simplest solution is to keep your engine pre-heated with an electric heater and maybe remove the dipstick after each flight so steam can escape. A piece of cheese cloth over the opening will keep dust out.

There may be a downside to keeping your engine warm 24-7, but aside from the electric bill I don’t know what it would be.

I’d also run synthetic multi-weight oil WITH Cam Guard, and change the oil every 25 hours, filter every 50.

Regardless I’d try to make sure your oil gets up to temp (180 degrees) on each leg of the flight, even if that means flying a little longer each time or running at a higher power setting. Climbing heats things up, but then the low power descent loads the engine with moisture, so I’m not real fond of that flight profile on a short flight. But I would be super-unhappy with any sort of regular flying that didn’t bring my oil up to temp for at least five minutes.

I do whole pages worth of short flights, if I logged them all one by one.

I don't think there's any problem, provided:

You do warm up first, and do run the engine hard enough to get it up to normal operating temp during the flight. It's not getting damaged immediately by the flight in that case. If it's not warming up to normal temps in 20 minutes of flight, you have a different problem.

In terms of maintaining oil quality longer term... Provided you do at least one good long hot run every 2 or 3 weeks, the nasty products should have more than enough time to exit the oil. Personally, I like to use cowl flaps to get my oil above 95C (200F) - top of the green arch, and keep it there for as long as I'm cruising. Often that's two or three hours non-stop.

Just my 2c. YMMV