Hi all,

New here, been lurking for awhile but first post.
Forgive me if this has been covered in the past, did a search didn't find much.

Looking for ways to improve short takeoff technique. Im currently flying a Maule M7 235
Sorry, kind of a general question with many variables... The basics though - maximum energy conservation on rollout:

When to raise the tail on rollout?

Start rollout "clean" add flaps when needed?

yes, I've read the POH, both pages, it's a Maule...

Building speed on takeoff: accelerate in ground effect as soon as plane can fly? Or-maintain contact with ground for a while longer?

Like to hear some thoughts on this

Thanks

That's an interesting thought I have a Taylorcraft that has flaps I usually hit the power raise the tail when it will come up and when I hit 38 miles an hour I yank 30° of flaps and for the sky I go
I can't honestly say if it is quicker then no flap take off I haven't really measured I just really know that I pop off the ground at least for 10 or 20 feet or so and feels pretty cool anyone else have thoughts on that??

Some departures depend on the surface and how close to stall you can fly safely ...

Example:

Rough stuff (aircraft bending rough ): get off fast before you break your aircraft, then ground effect, then climb, flaps are needed (at least to Vx, do not release flaps early unless you are really light and know the out come, I use approx 20 degrees for this type of surface).

Winds shears, gusts, orographic vortices, turbulence, high density altitude, tailwinds (one way in one way out strips) and x-cross winds (among other disturbances) could make the above scenario "iffy".

I watched the Valdez videos and saw interesting take-off and landing techniques by the masters.

First welcome brother Maule driver. I had that question back in 06 when I got my M7 235HP. With 8.50s and the TW on the ground they don't fly until air speed is 60mph. The plane will fly at 40, although it is hanging on the prop and behind the power curve.

IMO
Short field SMOOTH ground. I use some flap, I don't lock it, I keep the button in and milk the flaps. [using the EZflap] I am 5'8" with out the EZflap I am leaning on the passenger and don't see that great. Milking the flap will get the tail up a little sooner. This gets the wing slicing through the air rather than acting like a speed brake. It also keeps the TW from beating its self to death. At 60 MPH rotate climb out 75MPH when objects are cleared climb at 90MPH.

Short field ROUGH ground. Use flaps in a manner to get the tail up ASAP. On mine it is 35 mph at 40 mph bring the TW back down with some authority while simultaneously putting the flap in that sweet spot. Mine is somewhere between 24* 40* When done correctly the M7 will pop right off the ground. Just as your wheels come off the ground get the nose back to level and let the speed build to 60 mph. I then start a gentle climb, the airspeed will continue to build, hold it at 75 mph for Vx, 90 mph for Vy

Cheers

Not much experience here but I like too 3 point off. I feel like it is shorter for myself using 2 notches of flap, when its ready to fly it hops off and climbs at a steep angle. Just a hair of nose up trim and neutral on the stick. Just learning myself though.

I'm flying an M5, so the flaps are a little different....But, I always start with 1 notch (15 deg) of flaps, push the tail up by 40, by 45-50 I can simultaneously pull the yoke and full flaps and we're airborn. Nose down immediately to get a little speed, ease out the flaps, and let it climb. With the 235, all of this happens pretty quickly and is largely regulated by feel rather than by watching airspeed. Works out for some really short takeoffs for me.

sbmaule, you can search Maule specific info on www.maulepilots.org your question has been discussed there.
RWM, you can update that old flap ratchet to 20/40 degrees for very little $$ and follow flap tuneup discussions on maulepilots.org Your landings will decrease in length by a lot. Flap handles can also have an upward curve as in the late style.
Oregonmaule, that 8.50x6 liftoff speed is actually 54mph but ASI lag makes it seem more. BD used to pick up the tail with prop blast immediately then slam it down thus depressing the tailspring, grabbing flap and getting the wing to fly at minimum speed.

One way to get a more effective short takeoff is the J turn to the right (not the left because of P factor). Keep the airplane moving, tyres turning, first notch 20 or 24 deg flaps and begin the takeoff in opposite direction, make the right turn placeing tail out behind in the weeds and apply full power as you get about 20 degrees before takeoff direction. It takes a little practice because power application early will take you off line to left(P factor) and if late brake will be needed for alignment, then grab a handfull of flap at minimum flying speed. You can feel the right amount of flap to get best lift without overcoming the advantage with drag. Between 24 and 40 deg.
The idea is that you are taking advantage of momentum plus not cavitating (disturbing)the air ahead of the prop arc, but bringing the prop into cleaner air for more thrust. Prop experts will back this up.

The airplane will accelerate a little bit faster with no flaps. Not an enormous amount, but a little. This is for several reasons:
1) a tiny little bit of aerodynamic "parasite" drag from the flaps themselves, then
2) more parasite drag from the prop wash impacting the flaps, and then
3) another little bit of "induced drag" from deflecting the prop wash downward instead of 100% rearward (Deflecting the airflow downward creates lift, which is good, but lift ALWAYS creates drag, and any drag created before the airplane can fly is just drag), then
3) a little bit of reduced thrust from impeding the outflow field from the propeller .

Physics do not lie. Any drag source (brakes, spoilers, flaps, drogue chutes, open doors, tiedowns still connected to Earth) will act against acceleration.

Another overlooked issue is that pushing forward on the yoke to raise the tail also requires energy... you are lifting 100+ pounds of tail weight off the ground. That energy comes from somewhere, and like it or not this energy is subtracted from the energy available to accelerate the airplane down the runway. There will be some airplanes where pushing the yoke forward is worthwhile (because the wing makes enough drag tail-down that it is worth the small drag to lift the tail because the tail-up wing makes so much less). That will likely vary from airplane to airplane, a biplane with a long tail arm will be worthwhile and a clean monoplane with a short tail arm will not be worth the trade-off.

At a certain speed, lift becomes more important than acceleration, because you have reached some minimum speed that the airplane is just capable of flying. At that speed, sacrificing drag in favor of making as much lift as you can becomes worthwhile. So at that speed, pulling back on the yoke to raise the AoA, deploying flaps, drooping the ailerons, turning the thrust line upward, deflecting the propeller outflow downward, compressing the tail spring, (and anything else that produces lift) can do something good for you.

Other very significant factors come into play, such as runway/obstacle visibility, forward visibility on climb out, time and pilot workload required to deploy and retract the flaps, availability of full control movement, etc. These factors have influenced the decisions and techniques of many many pilots. A lot of pilots sacrifice some STOL performance because of these factors, and they are simply not using all of the capability of the airplane.

Most everyone here knows that I have a commercial interest in this discussion, but I would stand by these statements even if I were not in the flap handle business. (3 new orders from ACSpruce today

Thanks guys for the replies.

EZ covered some of the physics of energy conservation I was curious about

Few other good suggestions relating to Maules to try out next outing

Jeremy (?) "Tyres" gave it away... Im familiar with "L" turn and practice it regularly, "J" turn sounds interesting (and fun!)
Im assuming used when faced with a narrow strip ? Please elaborate on "prop cavitation" and "clean air" as related to this maneuver

Thanks!

Farmaule,

Thanks for the post re 3pt.

Ill relate a experience I had that made me rethink 3 pt takeoffs though - forever.
Landed in the desert on a lumpy 8' wide double track for the nite. awoke to a 5 kt cross wind, didnt think twice about it and proceeded with takeoff roll, right before the plane wanted to fly, hit a series of small woop de doo's. with each bump I drifted two feet over till I was completely in the bushes. made it out with some white knuckles and a good belly scrubbing...

Tail low in dirty air = poor directional controll.
My instructor used to preach to me "plane leaves the ground when you tell it to - not when it wants to"

Im still a greenhorn, just my 2c

At the coast near a place called Cape Foul Weather, OR ( named by Capt. Cook). There are times...If I can not keep the tail up (wheel landing, wheel take off), I would lose control. Nobody can change my mind about 3 points vs full wheel landings/take offs. It is not going to work for me in foul conditions (3pts). Learn to ride around on the two front wheels, that's the attitude it was designed to be in for max control. But, as a disclaimer, use your own tried and true judgment.

So you're saying that you have more directional control with the tailwheel... the primary control/steering part of the landing gear... not in contact with the ground?

I may be one of the lower time pilots on this forum (less than 1800TT), compared to some of our esteemed high-timers. But I distinctly remember my instructor telling me that you can run out of rudder control in a crosswind on a wheel landing, but the tail steering will still be available to exert directional control if it is in contact with the ground in a 3 point attitude. This is why instructors teach 3 point landings as the standard method, and wheel landings as secondary.

You have three means of controlling a taildragger... aero rudder control, tailwheel steering, and differential braking.

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that removing one of these controls (the tailwheel steering) from the equation increases aircraft control in foul weather.

With 100% sincerity, I'd like to understand if or how this is possible. Perhaps one of our senior-level pilots can verify and explain this.

I prefer differential braking when taxiing in heavy winds. Tailwheels do not give enough control in heavy winds. What type of flying do you mostly do?

sbmaule, the right hand J turn takeoff is not necessarily for narrow strips.
It is for shorter takeoff roll as you have rolling momentum and do not have to waste energy in getting the tyres turning as they are already turning.
Another advantage though minimal is that if you make the turn with the tail light or off ground, you can place it over otherwise uncrossable obstacles thus extending the available runway length.
If you were to aim the aircraft along the takeoff route, go to full power with brakes on then release (as is taught in flightschool), first you are in danger of vortexing FOD into the prop from the ground, but you also cavitate (set in motion rearward) the air immediately ahead of the prop, thus makeing a much slower acceleration. Whereas if you can keep the prop moving into more stable air through the turn you will have clean (undisturbed rearward)air to feed the prop.

EZ, the tailwheel gives minimal steering when on the ground at landing and rollout speeds. It has to be free to swivel in trail even though the rudder is moved to full deflection. The steering springs are there for that reason. Many pilots disconnect the steering springs preferring full free castor.
When transitioning pilots from trigear to taildragger one of the great misconceptions to get across to the student is just this and causes many unwanted excursions to the weeds. The trigear pilot lands the plane and as soon as the nosewheel touches ground there is positive steering with nosewheel overideing rudder and if viewed from the sidelines one will see the trigear pilot quits proper use of aileron at this same time.
This spells disaster in a taildragger.
At touchdown in the taildragger the Rudder is used to keep longtitudonal axis aligned with desired direction of travel Not Steering with a Wheel as trigear. Meanwhile it is Crucial to utilize aileron deflection to stop the aircraft from drifting sideways.
When transitioning pilots I prefer to spend a long time mechanically looking at the mechanics of what is actually taking place when pedals are depressed, elevator trim is applied and ailerons activated. This cannot be fully understood and absorbed by a busy student trying to learn from touchandgoes.

8GCBC wrote: What type of flying do you mostly do?

90% low and slow, occasional low and fast, all hand flying. In the last 3 years it's been early 172 nosewheel flying, much to my chagrin.

Before that it was 4 Taylorcrafts, 4 contest sailplanes, an RV-3, a racing Cassutt, a J-3, and a 150HP Yankee. All tailwheel except the Yankee.

My home airport is a fairly large paved municipal field. We do get gusty crosswinds, about 45-60 degrees, 15-20 knots. Certainly not extreme by real back country standards.

Having flown the Taylorcraft a reasonable amount, I'm very familiar with the idea of using every bit of every control in the aircraft (all 3 aero controls, both brakes, throttle, loud cursing) to keep it on the runway. Having sawn off the tailwheel of a Cassutt in a very misguided attempt to make it go faster, I can attest to running out of everything , wishing I had not cut the tailwheel off, and still not being able to keep it controlled on the runway.

EZFlap wrote:

8GCBC wrote: What type of flying do you mostly do?

90% low and slow, occasional low and fast, all hand flying. In the last 3 years it's been early 172 nosewheel flying, much to my chagrin.

Before that it was 4 Taylorcrafts, 4 contest sailplanes, an RV-3, a racing Cassutt, a J-3, and a 150HP Yankee. All tailwheel except the Yankee.

My home airport is a fairly large paved municipal field. We do get gusty crosswinds, about 45-60 degrees, 15-20 knots. Certainly not extreme by real back country standards.

Having flown the Taylorcraft a reasonable amount, I'm very familiar with the idea of using every bit of every control in the aircraft (all 3 aero controls, both brakes, throttle, loud cursing) to keep it on the runway. Having sawn off the tailwheel of a Cassutt in a very misguided attempt to make it go faster, I can attest to running out of everything , wishing I had not cut the tailwheel off, and still not being able to keep it controlled on the runway.

Man , I can't believe how much knowledge and wisdom can come out of such a pretty blonde head. Sort of an oxymoron isn't it. I'm impressed. Next time i'm in La I'm look'in you up for a date, maybe you can teach me a thing or two.

Man , I can't believe how much knowledge and wisdom can come out of such a pretty blonde head. Sort of an oxymoron isn't it. I'm impressed. Next time i'm in La I'm look'in you up for a date, maybe you can teach me a thing or two

Man, are you in for a surprise

It just might be a Hell of a date. Reminds me of the old story....

We've all heard the story of that officer who made the General so mad that the General threatened to send him to operate a one-man radar station at the North Pole. Well, I've met such an officer. Captain Jim Ellis of the United States Air Force was awarded this assignment after a particularly nasty practical joke (involving green jello and the General's swimming pool) backfired.

The Site was so remote, that Captain Ellis was told he would probably have no company for the entire year he would be there. The closest humans, he was told, was a "very small" Marine encampment about 50 miles away.

After about three months of absolutely no human contact, Captain Ellis heard a loud knock on the door to his pre-fab hut. He opened the door, and saw the biggest, roughest looking Marine he had ever seen in his life! In a deep, rough voice, the Marine introduced himself as Major Simmons from the Marine encampment "nearby."

The major said, "I know how lonely it is up here, and I'd like to invite you over to the Marine encampment for a party this Friday."

Captain Ellis said, "Great! It really is lonely here! And I've heard that the Marines throw really great parties!"

The Major said, "Okay then. I have to warn you, however, there will probably be some drinking going on at this party."

"Heck," the Captain replied, "I'm a drinker from way back. I can probably drink most Marines under the table."

"Okay," said the Major, "but I have to warn you. There will probably be a fight or two breaking out before the party is over."

"No Problem," the Air Force Captain replied. "I know the Marines are tough, but I think I can hold my own."

"Okay," said the Major, "But I should warn you, I wouldn't be surprised if there turns out to be a little wild sex going on."

"Count me in!" Said the Captain, "I haven't even thought of sex for the past two months! What should I wear to the party?"

"Wear anything you'd like," said the Major. It's just going to be you and me.

Gump

I think we should mob fund the date. I'm good for 10 bucks. No limit on side bets.

EZ, the piont you make may be valid on pavement,

This being a "backcountry forum" I am assuming alot of off pavement stuff going on. I shared my experience
that some - new to dirt pilot - may glean a little insite of what to expect in a similar scenario.

My opinion: Best way out of the situation described - tail up asap and crab into the wind as needed to counter drift, remain on track until you are sure the plane will fly.

This incident caught me with my pants down - I rolled out and just let things happen. which brings up the other point I was trying to make... "you fly the plane, it dosent fly you" 3 pt to's the plane is flying you.

Good one Gump!