Jaerl wrote:GB said - "A lot of the old hard - heads up here won't have anything but a stock wing". I have heard that from a couple people. I have heard it is harder to land in crosswinds and that you don't have a lot of sink rate if you need it.

I was coming back Monday from Jackson Hole and landed in Afton for fuel. There was a 20+ crosswind gusting to 25. I almost landed twice before I finally got it down. My 175 has the original metal wingtips that go almost to a point in the back and still felt like I had too much wing. Every time I got close to the ground the wind would haul my butt back up about 20 feet. ATIS said 3 kts @ 14. Thought Runway 16 would be a piece of cake till I got there. Came all the way home with a 85 kt ground speed.

Anyone know any other reasons not to use a STOL?

At the risk of getting my head chopped off I will say that generally the guys who don't like them haven't bothered to learn to fly them right. Again, book speeds do not work. If you fly book speeds, you will not like it for short field landings or crosswinds. Gotta slow it down.

25 knots straight across can be a handful in any of our Cessnas, especially if it is gusty. If you only "almost landed twice", then you did a fine job in my book. I did a real crusher today and it was only 10 straight down the runway.

When you grow old flying Cessnas...sometimes the same Cessna...change comes damned hard.

gb

To add to the previous post, if runway length is no problem and you have a bad crosswind then don't use full flaps. The squirrely, gusty wind won't have as much to grab onto and you reduce the ground effect. Sit at your local airport when it's windy and instead of everybody making the 500 ft exit I bet you see at least half the landings farther down the runway than normal. Most people add to much of a wind correction to their airspeed when it is blowing. The old axiom of add half the wind and all the gust really only applies to jets where the engine response time is measured in blocks of 4 seconds rather than almost instantaneous in a piston engine.

In Afton I was using 20 degrees flaps. I usually use 30 or 40. I was surprised to have my stall warning horn start blaring intermittently when I was still showing 65Kts. Two guys that both own 175's came out to help me fuel and commented that at least I taxi well

I actually fly quite a bit in pretty good winds. I learned to fly at Spanish Fork U77. It is almost always windy there unless you go yo first thing in the morning and right before sunset. I am pretty confident in the 150 but I only had just over ten hrs in the 175 and most of that has been just test flying to check new parts. It will be completely finished soon because I need to put on a new muffler, starter and plane power alternator kit at annual.

have a 1957 c172. have sportman's stol with vg's on it. the plane is amazing. can do slow flight at 60 mph, w/no worries. the plane in a power off stall, would not stall. the airspeed indicator was at 40 mph, it can go on lower. would reco to anyone who is looking to fly slower. the cruise speed seems the same.

I can only speak for the Horton kit on my C 172 tailwheel conversion. I have experimented with it for some months now. I highly recommend a STOL kit. I am looking into VGs to compiment my Horton. If you don't slow it down, you will float. I ws very frustrated when i first got the plane. I would come in at 60 MPH indicated and a small gust of wind would elevate me 20 feet off the runway just as I was about to flare, when the wind dies, you have to punch the power to avoid createring in all resulting in an overshoot and bounce. All my approaches are with the stall horn blairing now.

Got to add my two cents worth here since I have maybe 3500 hours with Horton cuffs on several airplanes (before Sportsman) and only around 500 hours with the Sportsman and would not fly in and out of short strips without a leading edge cuff. I added vgs to the Sportsman cuff since I had lost aileron control with the Horton once while dragging a pasture looking for a smooth spot to land while flying behind the power curve and could not raise the wing. I hoped the vgs would keep the flow attached for aileron control. When you are too slow, the sink rate is real high, so don't be late on adding power, but fly it with a Angle of Attack to make this safer. I use Alpha Systems. Airspeed Indicators are worthless at slow speeds. I would never fly a slow steep approach to a short strip, without a AOA.

Cross wind landings are not a problem. Since I have never ground looped in over 6000 hours of STOL "off airport" flying, I can speak with authority. Always land with full flaps. My thought here is....if I am going to have a wreck, I want to do it at the slowest speed possible. The danger of not using flaps and wheeling it on is the transition from flying to stopped. You are in danger of losing it for too long a time. I never wheel land (except a C180) and I am on the brakes right away and dump the flaps immediately. It's all over in 50 feet. I cut down the cross wind by landing diagonally across the runway (you can do that with a STOL kit) or landing across the runway at a taxiway entrance, or if no place else, land on the ramp if the choice is between taking a chance on wrecking the plane or getting chewed out, I'll take the chewing. I have put a Cessna 170B with Horton cuffs on the ground safely in 50 mph winds. This was planned so I did not have to turn around, which is impossible. 20 to 25 knots winds do not bother in the least.

Since I am a older "live" pilot (you could say I have never had a fatal accident) you have the choice of keeping this info or trash it.

172heavy wrote:I have questions about the Sportsman STOL mods for the 172, I have a 67H with a 220HP CS mod, other than that its stock. I have been looking at adding a Sportsman STOL kit. I have run across web sights that clam its magic and others that say that there is no difference. Here are the things that I have been warned may change in a non positive way.
1. Ability to land in gusting wind conditions, including cross winds. It’s a fact of life where I live.
2. Slower cruise speed, I have read mixed reviews on that. Could this be a factor of cruise altitude? I am of the understanding that a high lift wing is more efficient at higher altitude, I normally cruise at 6500 to 8500 Ft. Will I lose cruise speed at these altitudes?
3. Insurance rates, Higher rates with STOL kit?
I am a week end flyer that wants to fly back country strips, I currently use the aircraft for cross country flights with an average 152 MPH @ 70% 11GPH. I would hate to loose those numbers.
I realize that removing wheel pants, larger tires will slow the plane down, however its only an afternoon task to reconfigure for best cross country performance.
If any one has a similar aircraft with the Sportsman mod I would love to hear back.
Thanks 172Heavy

Sportsman STOL
When I first joined this group I asked if I should install the Sportsman STOL kit, I own a 1967 172H with a Franklin 220HP C/S prop. I had questions and concerns. I received overwhelming encouragement to install it, so I did, last July we, my wife Janice and I flew up to Polson MT where we had Stene Aviation installed the kit, I thought long and hard about installing it myself, I knew that I could do it, but decided that I did not want to go through the (first time) learning curve on my aircraft without assistance from someone that had done it before (good decision). From the time we arrived we were treated like friends by all at the airport, we rented the on airport efficiency and used the airport car, Stene Aviation has a clean well lit shop with happy employees, Willie Stene allowed me assist him installing the kit, he even gave me a break on the price of the install for helping, in reality he probably should have charged extra. I noticed a pile of old STOL kits in the corner of the shop, ones that had been removed and the Sportsman installed in their place. The install went smooth; I think that Willie has installed so many of these kits that he knows every rivet by name. The test flight, slow flight test, the airplane is loaded with camping gear, we climb to a safe altitude and cleared for unusual maneuvers, we reduce power and start holding back on the yoke, with the yoke full back, full flaps and 13 IN of manifold pressure we have level flight, my airspeed indicator starts at 40 MPH the needle is bouncing below it,,,,???? You got to be kidding, A 67 C172 loaded with gear flying below 40 MPH!!! I realize that the pitot is no longer directed directly into the oncoming air but still this is slower than I have ever been in an aircraft, no doubt.
Flying impressions; first the airplane flies like it’s on rails, that’s one of the first things that I noticed there was a different feel in the pattern I needed little or no rudder and the ailerons are much more solid than before , next thing; everything happens 10 to 20MPH latter than it used to, I used to fly the pattern at 80 to 100 now I fly it at 80, I used to fly final at 80 I now fly final at 60 MPH, it never felt safe at 60 MPH before.
Cruse speed, maybe just maybe I gained several MPH???@ FL8500 8.5GPH 59Deg. F 2500 RPM 127MPH indicated, it was 125-126 Mph indicated. To close to call, but I don’t believe that I have lost anything.
After the trip we unpacked it and washed it, I always fly it after washing it, I put in 25 Deg of flaps and started my take off roll, typically with 25 deg of flaps I can cokes it off the runway around 55 mph with lots of drag and mush, this time I gave a little pull @ 45 MPH,just to see, never expecting,, Holy SH*T it flying, not only is it flying its solid and accelerating in ground effect, it’s never done that before! I was stunned I had a friend with me, his comment was “that wasn’t a football field” and that’s with two large adults and 22 gal usable. The next day I took the airport manager out for a ride once again 25 deg flap but this time I held the yoke back a bit, He is calling the numbers A bit before 40 mph we were airborne, with two large men 18 gal usable. Now this is FUN. I flew to Santa Paula to see a friend he watched as we departed there was a comment from an old man on the ground, that ain’t like any 172 that I have ever seen before! The airplane is far safer lands shorter by far and there is no loss of cruse speed, Franklin 220 and Sportsman STOL, I wish I could take Clyde Cessna for a ride!

I can give you my experience.
3 months ago I asked in this forums and a few other ones that what they thought about me taking my Horton off my 182 and put Sportsman
Most people said dont waste your money.
I remember MTV recommended it , along with a minority .

I had my 182 P with Horton and VGs, for short field landings I would approach at 60mph with power and a feeling of the plane dropping from under me, has to add power for the flare.
I put the Sportsman, added the VGs and took off the flap gap seals.
Now I approach at 50 mph no sinking, stable and enough elevator for a power off flare.

Absolutelly recommend it, difference is huge over the Horton.
Plane is safer and a lot more fun to fly, real fun!!

Here is an example 1,200ft runway, stopped in less than half of the field, approach at 50mph ,power off flare.
Im a low time pilot with a bit less than 400hrs.
Experienced pilots can do a lot better for sure.

I think you found out what gap seals did to your plane. On my 67 182 with VG's only I too could approach at 50 MPH(in conditions that weren't turbulent) and have enough energy to flare power off. For short field ops you do not want flap gap seals, it defeats the purpose of the flap design.

172heavy wrote:Sportsman STOL
When I first joined this group I asked if I should install the Sportsman STOL kit, I own a 1967 172H with a Franklin 220HP C/S prop. I had questions and concerns. I received overwhelming encouragement to install it, so I did, last July we, my wife Janice and I flew up to Polson MT where we had Stene Aviation installed the kit, I thought long and hard about installing it myself, I knew that I could do it, but decided that I did not want to go through the (first time) learning curve on my aircraft without assistance from someone that had done it before (good decision). From the time we arrived we were treated like friends by all at the airport, we rented the on airport efficiency and used the airport car, Stene Aviation has a clean well lit shop with happy employees, Willie Stene allowed me assist him installing the kit, he even gave me a break on the price of the install for helping, in reality he probably should have charged extra. I noticed a pile of old STOL kits in the corner of the shop, ones that had been removed and the Sportsman installed in their place. The install went smooth; I think that Willie has installed so many of these kits that he knows every rivet by name. The test flight, slow flight test, the airplane is loaded with camping gear, we climb to a safe altitude and cleared for unusual maneuvers, we reduce power and start holding back on the yoke, with the yoke full back, full flaps and 13 IN of manifold pressure we have level flight, my airspeed indicator starts at 40 MPH the needle is bouncing below it,,,,???? You got to be kidding, A 67 C172 loaded with gear flying below 40 MPH!!! I realize that the pitot is no longer directed directly into the oncoming air but still this is slower than I have ever been in an aircraft, no doubt.
Flying impressions; first the airplane flies like it’s on rails, that’s one of the first things that I noticed there was a different feel in the pattern I needed little or no rudder and the ailerons are much more solid than before , next thing; everything happens 10 to 20MPH latter than it used to, I used to fly the pattern at 80 to 100 now I fly it at 80, I used to fly final at 80 I now fly final at 60 MPH, it never felt safe at 60 MPH before.
Cruse speed, maybe just maybe I gained several MPH???@ FL8500 8.5GPH 59Deg. F 2500 RPM 127MPH indicated, it was 125-126 Mph indicated. To close to call, but I don’t believe that I have lost anything.
After the trip we unpacked it and washed it, I always fly it after washing it, I put in 25 Deg of flaps and started my take off roll, typically with 25 deg of flaps I can cokes it off the runway around 55 mph with lots of drag and mush, this time I gave a little pull @ 45 MPH,just to see, never expecting,, Holy SH*T it flying, not only is it flying its solid and accelerating in ground effect, it’s never done that before! I was stunned I had a friend with me, his comment was “that wasn’t a football field” and that’s with two large adults and 22 gal usable. The next day I took the airport manager out for a ride once again 25 deg flap but this time I held the yoke back a bit, He is calling the numbers A bit before 40 mph we were airborne, with two large men 18 gal usable. Now this is FUN. I flew to Santa Paula to see a friend he watched as we departed there was a comment from an old man on the ground, that ain’t like any 172 that I have ever seen before! The airplane is far safer lands shorter by far and there is no loss of cruse speed, Franklin 220 and Sportsman STOL, I wish I could take Clyde Cessna for a ride!

Good for you..its nice to purchase a product and be thoroughly impressed with the results. I'm guessing an older, lightweight 172 with 220 hp on the nose would be like $hit'n in tall cotton

Hi folks..
since my father Marshall Quackenbush "invented" Sportsman STOL (actually the airfoil plot came from Marvin Davis of Lockheed Skunkworks) ...and I worked for him and was involved way back with the first prototype @ Flite Research ...have made all the parts and installed many kits I can say that Will Stene's claims are not exaggerated...you have to fly to believe ....
I still install the kits as part of my aircraft repair biz.... and wouldn't own a Cessna single engine airplane the mod is STC'd for without one ...Alan Quackenbush

Welcome to the site Alan! Maybe I am just late to the party but just noticed you.

I have contemplated for many years with putting the SPORTSMANS STOL cuff on my old 172. The laces I have flown I have never needed it but recently heard through the grapevine that the hangar I rent is scheduled to be torn down. If that is true I will be bringing my 172 to my 'farm' strip and if I do, I will definitely invest in the kit. My strip is doable now but I sure would like to have a safety net per se, and I believe the SPORTSMANS STOL will give me that extra margin.

172Heavy,

Thanks for following up with your experience after asking the question.

And, while I had little doubt you'd find the Sportsman to your liking, it's always good to hear an honest and detailed report.

Glad you are happy with the cuff. I suspect that the more experience you get with it, the better you'll like it. With that 220 Franklin, that thing should be a real fire breather.

Fly safe,

MTV