I had to let my AP/IA go after 14 years. He did good for a long time. I like the guy. But. I was being charged for work not being done. When your engine won't start and you trace it to the spark plugs. That is a clue!

There has been other issues with other pilots. Like you give the business money for jugs or a propeller, then you have a hell of a time getting the parts or your money back.

Just sad because the guy is so likeable.

My point is be careful. Ask for recommendations from happy customers. Trust BUT! verify. Then if your gut tells you something isn't right, believe your gut.

Has anyone else had similar experiences.

Cheers...Rob

Good luck with search

At least he didn’t steal anything

Countless stories of mechanics doing unneeded and unauthorized work then holding the logs, or worse the whole plane, for ransom.

I agree we need more good and honest mechanics, wish more people knew of the profession, lots of kids getting pointless degrees who might be interested in a better ROI as a AP if they knew about the profession

Oregon Maule - that sucks that you had this experience - especially after 14 years. I have been extremely fortunate to have had the same IA for the last 16 years. He bills me fairly and takes great care of the 180. Makes it a commitment to keep me flying too. I wish maintenance on the 180 was cheap. He is not a cutting corners type mechanic but he has done quite a few things to save me money when he can and overall has been a great IA. His reputation is fantastic in the community and we have built trust over those 16 years.

A&Ps/IAs are in short supply and I think this is driving prices higher and some less scrupulous actions. I am really careful who I let touch my airplane. Been in a situation before similar to what NineThreeKilo describes where I dealt with a dishonest mechanic who tried grounding my airplane for a problem that had likely been there for years. Luckily he did not have the logbooks. I can't prove he did anything malicious but it was really suspicious how 2 other problems magically appeared right after he touched the airplane. He wanted to sell me on a full restoration that would have likely taken years. In the medical business we call this a wallet biopsy. I learned a lot through what happened - and am often too trusting with people in aviation just because the overwhelming majority of people in the aviation are honest. My mechanic and another friend helped me convince this bullshit artist mechanic that it would be wise to let me fly it home and not involve the FAA or take legal action against him. Still it was extremely stressful and my take home is be very careful who is working on your airplane. Maybe not let them do anything without you being there to watch - until trust is established which unfortunately takes years.



Josh

Based on what I have seen the last sixty years, what Rob and Josh say is accurate. Most AP/IAs are honest businessmen in a business that has increased in cost of parts and work more than inflation. Both my examples are old, but seem to be current from what these two have said.

I lost the engine on my $1340 Ercoupe to a mechanic in a mechanics lean state. When the annual ran out I knew I would have to have work done on my engine. The mechanic gave me a quote on both top and bottom overhaul. When he evaluated it to need an overhaul, I said I didn't have the money and asked for the bill. He gave me the bill for a completed overhaul. I was young and didn't know what to do. I went home and talked to pilot friends. They went with me to help convince him to charge me for work done and help me remove the wings and trailer it home. There had be no tear down, just estimates on top or overhaul but a big bill. My friends helped me pay the bill and we took the airplane home.

Both pipeline patrol companies I worked for had their own mechanics, but I knew my FBO well having instructed for him and I knew the AI mechanic there. This mechanic was very competent and well liked. What none of us knew, however, was that he was seeding oil filters to get total overhaul work and that he had been in jail for fraud.

Understand that I grew up in a handshake world. Losses were very uncomfortable, but not in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I know a thing or two about dishonest people posing as aircraft mechanics and our 185 is proof of it.

I still like to think that there are more honest people in the world than dishonest people but you can’t be too careful. Trust but verify is some great advice. That lesson has paid dividends in other areas of life.

Something that anyone searching for a new mechanic could benefit from is a nice chat with a previous customer. You’ll also get the benefit of being able to look over some workmanship. Having the knowledge that I do now, screws in the seat rails, screws in the window frames and random ass weird janky shit that doesn’t seem right sets off all kinds of alarm bells in my head now about lazy workmanship. Our 185 has more corrosion on it now from poor paint prep than it did when it came out of Texas. Unfortunately, that barely scratches the surface of what needs to be addressed this winter.

I hope you find a fair mechanic that will take care of your baby.

About 20 years ago the local rumor mill at the airport was saying to stay away from a particular one-man FBO because he had been using annuals to stay busy in the off season, as in he "inspected" until he got another plane in the shop. The job that got him boycotted was an annual on a C-150 that took over 2 weeks and charged about 40 hours, but the only parts were oil and an oil and air filter.

Never let the logs leave your possession. When mechanic wants to review them make copies (ya, I know, pain in the A** but well worth the time it takes) or sit down with him during review and take em home with you when you leave. I know, kinda harsh but there are too many cases of lost logs or logs being held hostage or what ever. Go thru your logs, STC’s, 337’s and arrange them so it takes very little time to review or find what the mechanic may need. This makes his life easier and review takes little time. There are just as many “sketchy” pilots and aircraft owners out there too. It’s amazing what some owners ask AP/IA to do, shady dishonest stuff, this really puts the honest mechanic in a tough position.

Remember, YOU are responsible for your aircraft and its airworthiness.

^^^ Most excellent advice and observation.

Make a digital copy of your logs. It is as valuable as the paper copies, and after the initial PITA, it is not any harder to keep up than an occasional scan / copy / paste. Far more valuable than the FAA disk which will have only the bare bones. I can't imagine owning a turbine anything without a digital back up.

Take care, Rob

If you don't provide me with logs, you don't get an annual. Plain and simple. Plus I'd throw you out of the shop! (literally!!) I tried to stay quiet about this thread, but it's so out of line it's pathetic. If you don't turn your logs over, the IA CANNOT annual that aircraft. If you're that paranoid, you should get your A&P and IA and do your own!
Good grief!!!
John

hardtailjohn wrote:If you don't provide me with logs, you don't get an annual. Plain and simple. Plus I'd throw you out of the shop! (literally!!) I tried to stay quiet about this thread, but it's so out of line it's pathetic. If you don't turn your logs over, the IA CANNOT annual that aircraft. If you're that paranoid, you should get your A&P and IA and do your own!
Good grief!!!
John

While I completely agree with the importance of digital logs, I also strongly agree with the above statement. You simply have to part with your logbooks sometimes. Isn’t that why you have a digital backup?

John, if you were referring to my post I suggest you reread it. I never said anything about not providing logs. The IA will have access to them for review.

Kurt

This stuff is sooo not worth getting worked up over. A mechanic / pilot relationship is just like any other human interaction. Some parties are compatible from the get-go, some could never be. I would certainly not let Oregon Maule select my soul mate, yet odds are pretty good that I'd like to hear his opinion on a potential business transaction / working relationship, in fact I would solicit it. But beyond that the choice and responsibilities would be mine, and I recognize that while he may absolutely love or hate how his arrangement is, I may find the total opposite.

As for physically handing books, well that's no different than embarking in the relationship. How far that trust and responsibility extends is a direct reflection of how far it should reciprocate. If you don't trust your mechanic with the paper, why are you trusting him with the hard goods (airplane)? The paper can't kill you when it fails. Conversely if he feels that lack of trust, how does he know you're going to pay him without a fight when his work is done and you had a different idea of how it should have progressed?

Having said all that, there may be instances where a repair or maintenance must be carried out where transporting logs would simply be impractical. Imagine a member here flying his super hawk bush beater out of state and needing to replace an alternator. If it were me, I'd enjoy having some help, and said mechanic sending me a 'sticky' to affix to the logs. Easy peasy... If a mechanic is uncomfortable addressing a need without physical books in hand that is certainly his choice, I wouldn't fault him for it, that is his prerogative, although in the case of an annual, I don't know how you deem an aircraft airworthy without having the logs to study?

Digital copies... probably not for everyone, and that's cool. It's just an investment, like any other. How much is your time worth vs the asset you are trying to protect? because that's all it takes is a bit of your time. If you're the type of person who's time is extremely valuable, you probably have staff you can assign to digitizing the logs, or have selected a purchase that already has that in place. And maybe your just a guy who really doesn't give a rip or see the need, I bought my first cub by handing over a paper lunch sack full of $100 bills, times have changed...

Take care, Rob

hardtailjohn wrote:If you don't provide me with logs, you don't get an annual. Plain and simple. Plus I'd throw you out of the shop! (literally!!) I tried to stay quiet about this thread, but it's so out of line it's pathetic. If you don't turn your logs over, the IA CANNOT annual that aircraft. If you're that paranoid, you should get your A&P and IA and do your own!
Good grief!!! John

I am in the "keep your logbooks in hand" camp.
I know of one situation where an IA's employee had a grudge against one of the IA's customers,
when that customer's airplane was in for annual the logbooks just happened to get lost.
Everyone involved knew the employee had taken them, but no one could prove it.
He got fired, but the logbooks were still gone.
What's that do to the value of that airplane?

A mechanic on my airport used to have a pilot lounge above the office,
it was open to people to hang out in and the local pilot association used to have meetings there.
One day at a pilot assn meeting I noticed than there was someone's logbooks just
laying around on the coffee table mixed in with a bunch of magazines, just begging to get lost or taken.

Some people just leave their logbooks & aircraft records with their mechanic.
I know of a situation where the mechanic passed away, his family just locked up the shop.
Nobody around for quite a while.
When the customers were finally able to get in touch with the family,
and asked for their paperwork,
they were told "nobody's taking my dad's stuff".
I think everything got sorted out, eventually, but it was certainly a bad situation.

I know of another case when a customer's logbooks got lost at the mechanics shop.
The mechanic was as honest as the day is long, but he was very disorganized.
I suspect the logbooks got put into a manila folder with paperwork for another plane
and given to the owner of that other plane.
They never turned up,

At annual time, I take the logbooks etc (in a 3 ring binder) to the mechanic.
I am there or at least close by while he reviews them and/or fills them out as required.
Then they go home with me.
I don't think I've even left the paperwork for my airplane overnight in the past 20 years.

Human relation aspects aside, it's probably worth noting that common sense and logic should probably be exercised if you plan airplane ownership and / or maintenance, no, it is your greatest responsibility.

A most excellent IA here correctly states that he can not sign off an annual without referencing / inspecting the logbooks to ensure airworthiness. He must verify, period. How you intend to cross that bridge really shouldn't be the most important part of the relationship, again the book isn't going to kill you. Pick the IA that is the absolute best you can find, and then workout the paper trail. Some of the biggest turds I have elected not to buy had the best paperwork.

Another well respected A&P goes on to recite case after case of log book loss nightmares... failures by an IA (except the dead one) for sure, but I'd say every one of those owners bears as much fault in the failure as the IA's in question. After all, if you have established a relationship with an IA, shouldn't he know your airplane? Was it up to date on AD's and requirements last year? Is he incapable of developing a log book entry based on the current inspection and work performed and then referencing the logs while going over the findings of the annual with you or inspecting them prior to commencement while you plan any new additions or corrections?

I realize the first go around may take a while, but if an A&P, IA, or repair station, needs my paper for an extended period of time, there probably should be some other redeeming qualities for me to want to continue that relationship.

By nature of the position life finds me in, I deal with several IA's. Not even the two that are my best friends in life get to put my logs on their mantle, that is not a reflection of my trust in them, I simply believe it would be a failure on my part to be responsible for my aircraft. Take them home for the night so they can address them at their leisure? ya those particular relationships are probably ok for that, long term custody? probably not. Some of the others I work with, maybe not so much. Oh, and since my PMI feels strongly that the digital copies are acceptable, if I found myself needing to leave logs with someone for an extended period of time, in the name of research or analytics, I'd probably just shoot them over a current PDF.... this is after all the year of our lord 2023 we can do this stuff without a lot of drama This is not paranoia on my part, it's just utilizing the tools available to make all of our lives simpler and safer.

And while we are talking about digital copies for back up as an investment in insurance, how about where you keep your logs in your own home? Mine would live in a firesafe, and someday when I'm rich and shameless they probably will. Today? since I still work for a living, they live in a gunsafe I outgrew. Because IA's aren't the only ones that can have logs get chewed on by dogs, lost, stolen, or burned.

This stuff needn't be rocket science, nor the kind of stuff that draws out passion tantamount to a political mud slinging.

Take care, Rob

Agree on the benefit of logbook copies!
Other discussion goes both ways. Dale, I don't know if same situation, but I recall ~20 years ago Jim Shore was asked to do an annual on a smaller Cessna (150?). He noted some unapproved modifications as well as some required repairs to complete the annual. The owner initially had him start to work, but then balked at full estimate. Jim noted he wouldn't sign off the annual, but would sign for work completed, which he could then take elsewhere - as long as he paid for time of work completed (I recall was <20 hours +parts). I was in the shop doing an engine change, so was the fly on the wall, with both parties complaining to me, for whatever reason. I empathized with the owner that the estimate for the work seemed like a lot for bringing a 150 up to snuff, but pointed out all he had to do was pay for the time completed and then go down the way to someone else. He complained that it would be paying for the time to get an annual done, but then not getting the annual signed off, and felt that was not right.
They ended up going to court and I believe verdict was in favor of Shores, but the individual continued to spread negative tales which did not represent the interaction (or paperwork) I witnessed.
I suspect is not the same case as Jim was forever working on the N3Ns or Ag aircraft and did not seem to need additional work to tide him over.
Cheers, Matt

Rob wrote:I would certainly not let Oregon Maule select my soul mate, yet odds are pretty good that I'd like to hear his opinion on a potential business transaction / working relationship, in fact I would solicit it.

Take care, Rob

For now I am doing my own work under the supervision of AP/IA. I have been a mechanic my whole life. Diesel trucks, tractors. Motorcycles, hot rod Chev's, Ford's.

The reason I started using airplane mechanics was part, to busy with my other 2 businesses. Part lazy. Part wanting everything done by a mechanic who specializes in GA planes.

I have been flying the same plane now for 17 years. More and more pilots tell me this.

"No one will be as conscientious on your airplane work as you will be" Maybe true? Maybe not? You decide. One things for sure, It's way cost effective to do it yourself.

As for working with AP's I'm a trusting person by nature. But! 30 years in the rental home business have taught me, there are a bunch of lying people out there.

Make agreements about the scope of work in writing. If a person won't sign an agreement they are not serious about what they verbally said.

Trust your gut.

Cheers

hotrod180 wrote:

hardtailjohn wrote:If you don't provide me with logs, you don't get an annual. Plain and simple. Plus I'd throw you out of the shop! (literally!!) I tried to stay quiet about this thread, but it's so out of line it's pathetic. If you don't turn your logs over, the IA CANNOT annual that aircraft. If you're that paranoid, you should get your A&P and IA and do your own!
Good grief!!! John

I am in the "keep your logbooks in hand" camp.
I know of one situation where an IA's employee had a grudge against one of the IA's customers,
when that customer's airplane was in for annual the logbooks just happened to get lost.
Everyone involved knew the employee had taken them, but no one could prove it.
He got fired, but the logbooks were still gone.
What's that do to the value of that airplane?

A mechanic on my airport used to have a pilot lounge above the office,
it was open to people to hang out in and the local pilot association used to have meetings there.
One day at a pilot assn meeting I noticed than there was someone's logbooks just
laying around on the coffee table mixed in with a bunch of magazines, just begging to get lost or taken.

Some people just leave their logbooks & aircraft records with their mechanic.
I know of a situation where the mechanic passed away, his family just locked up the shop.
Nobody around for quite a while.
When the customers were finally able to get in touch with the family,
and asked for their paperwork,
they were told "nobody's taking my dad's stuff".
I think everything got sorted out, eventually, but it was certainly a bad situation.

I know of another case when a customer's logbooks got lost at the mechanics shop.
The mechanic was as honest as the day is long, but he was very disorganized.
I suspect the logbooks got put into a manila folder with paperwork for another plane
and given to the owner of that other plane.
They never turned up,

At annual time, I take the logbooks etc (in a 3 ring binder) to the mechanic.
I am there or at least close by while he reviews them and/or fills them out as required.
Then they go home with me.
I don't think I've even left the paperwork for my airplane overnight in the past 20 years.

This

Normally I’ll send them over as a PDF, I use genus scan and pdfSAM to keep my logs updated digitally, mechanic gets a email of the PDFs, I help with owner assist, he gets the cash we agree to and I leave with a sticker

When we have work done on the multi million dollar kerosine burners I don’t bring the logs to the shops we use, it’s all digital.

For my little 185, if a mechanic wants to see the logs that’s fine, but if he wants to hold onto them, there is no honest and logical reason for this, at best he’s just asking for liability and drama.

It’s one thing to trust someone with the plane, but a little bag with a few books worth north of 25% of the value of my plane, noooope

Lots easier for that little bag to get lost or worse than loosing a 185 or having a angry person put my 185 in the back of their car and drive off

mpm wrote:

hardtailjohn wrote:If you don't provide me with logs, you don't get an annual. Plain and simple. Plus I'd throw you out of the shop! (literally!!) I tried to stay quiet about this thread, but it's so out of line it's pathetic. If you don't turn your logs over, the IA CANNOT annual that aircraft. If you're that paranoid, you should get your A&P and IA and do your own!
Good grief!!!
John

While I completely agree with the importance of digital logs, I also strongly agree with the above statement. You simply have to part with your logbooks sometimes. Isn’t that why you have a digital backup?

You never have to provide your original logs to anyone. Not for an IA doing an annual, and not even for an FAA inspector making a request to you for logs. Copies of the originals are totally sufficient and the FARs support this. An IA can look at copies of your logs and provide their sign off on a post it note and that would be 100% legal. Now it's best to get this established with your IA up front so that you can both part ways before work has begun if you don't see eye to eye on this.

There have also been formal FAA determinations from the office of General Counsel in Washington DC where a mechanic insisted that he had to have possession of the original physical logbooks in order to sign off his work and the owner/operator asked the mechanic make his entry on a self adhesive sticker instead, so he could paste it in the logbook himself. The owner didn't want the mechanic to have access to the original logbooks.

The mechanic escalated this to FAA legal, and the FAA had to straighten him out. According to the law, the mechanic must note his work on any paper, hand it to the owner, and there is no reason or obligation for the owner to give the mechanic access to the physical original logs.

Also as a Part 91 operator, maintenance/repair entries under 43.9 and inspection entries under 43.11 are only required to be kept for a maximum of 1 year. There are some log entires that are permanent entries, and must be retained indefinitely and passed on to the next owner. Some of these permanent entries are AD compliance, form 337s, and weight & balance.

If you crash your plane and the FAA wants your logs, you can give them copies of everything, without ever giving them access to the originals, Furthermore, you only have to give them copies of the permanent records as well as only 1 year of the maintenance/repair/inspection records (43.11). The inspector won't be happy but there isn't anything he nor the FAA can do.

Lots of folks operate on tradition and want to have the logs in hand because it makes them feel comfortable, but the law doesn't support this behavior.

Don't ever allow anyone to have the opportunity to take your logs hostage. The only person that should ever get access to your original logs is a new owner after handing you a pile of cash to take the airplane away from you.

Aryana wrote:....Don't ever allow anyone to have the opportunity to take your logs hostage. The only person that should ever get access to your original logs is a new owner after handing you a pile of cash to take the airplane away from you.

This is the crux of it.
Taken hostage, or just lost, same difference--
a big hit to the value of your airplane and a huge PITA to rectify.