Great explanation of the dangers of a skidded turn. Good reminders for all, good explanation for newbies.

Good explanation. Thanks for posting.

Here's the video demo to go with it. Scary to see how fast the skid can turn into a disaster.

Good stuff! On a flight review a few years ago Matt7GCBC had me do a few of these and some slips into stalls. Man they were fun but it sure made me realize that if you do one close to the ground there is zero chance for recovery.

Now that was a very valuable ten minutes spent. He does a very accurate job of describing what the low time pilot sees, and then does..... to fix the overshoot.
And I think, under duress... or distraction, we all might pull a bit too firmly on the yoke.
For me, cardinal rule is ALWAYS ball in the middle. Don't care how much bank...
And the steeper you roll it, the more you unload the wing. Hell, even on an engine failure on takeoff... I am going to be pushing firmly. Not pulling for damn sure.
Just my two cents, but suggest watching all the way through... and then show it to some more of your buddies. That 700 ft. sure goes away fast.

Here Rich Stowell discusses the difference in stall/spin potential between skids and slips. It is Myth#3 that starts about 8:40
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1510475370001

Great explanations. When it comes to comfort in stall/spin recovery, Whee and others are an exception as most folks are outside their comfort zone just doing a stall in a turn, let alone cross controlled. While a CFI, I admit to deficiency in capability as an eloquent educator that is able to concisely emphasize a memorable point.
I have spent much time practicing spins with aileron deflection in and out-spin, variable elevator back pressure after spin development, power on and off effects, forward and mid CG, and varied numbers of rotations/development. In short, folks are often told "you should go with an instructor", and I don't like the thought that I should be trusted just because I got signed off for doing a couple spins during initial CFI training. As whee mentioned, I have some pilots do cross-controlled stalls. Because this is practiced at altitude and slipping/skidding in turning flight, (excluding the effect of power/torque and direction of turn/aircraft rigging) there really isn't a big difference in the ability to get the aircraft to break in a slip or skid - although everyone sure feels more comfortable when the plane breaks/rolls through the level vs. inverted attitude!
Despite all this poking holes in the sky, what I have failed to articulate in the past, is what was clearly stated above: The risk of stall/spin in a slip is less than a skid by virtue of our attempt to maintain a ground track forces us to reduce elevator back pressure and thus angle of attack.
So now I'll have to go out and screw around with it to see how things look if attempting to maintain alignment with a sectional line and more interesting might be evaluating the slipping base to final turn with some over and undershoot. Anyone have some feedback?
I know the CFIs who work at it daily can regurgitate all these good point without difficulty, but thanks again for illuminating it for a part-timer.

Whee, thanks for the recent comments.
Matt

Here are two other videos regarding upset recovery:






The two biggest things I've gotten so far from watching all this stuff:

1. Push, Power, Rudder, Roll, Climb (this is my new mantra for when the crap hits the fan)

2. Skid results in up elevator to compensate, thereby increasing angle of attack, whereas

a proper slip results in down elevator to compensate, decreasing angle of attack (all the way to zero in a full-slip knife edge pass)

Yes, good stuff on skids...

Matt 7GCBC wrote:...and more interesting might be evaluating the slipping base to final turn with some over and undershoot. Anyone have some feedback?
Matt

My opinion of this scenario (stalling out of a slip) is that you will find it to be not any more complicated than a stall from coordinated flight, as the wings will be rolling through level when it breaks... Never the less stalling while turning final is going to be an attention getter to say the least

We have been through this discussion before, and it still amuses me to see people who are afraid to hold the nose up while slipping an airplane to land... IMHO lowering the nose in a slip pretty well negates the whole purpose of the maneuver


YMMV, Rob

Terrific videos and discussion! Thanks for sharing.

I did some upset and aerobatics training some years back with Steve Wolf while he was still in Oregon. Fantastic instructor. It's really impressive how well these guys understand aerodynamics and how clearly they can explain these complex dynamics.

Good stuff!

Rob wrote: We have been through this discussion before, and it still amuses me to see people who are afraid to hold the nose up while slipping an airplane to land... IMHO lowering the nose in a slip pretty well negates the whole purpose of the maneuver

Not sure if you're referring to my comment above, but I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't hold the nose up in a slip. I slip aggressively all the time (I don't have flaps), and I hold the nose wherever I need to in order to maintain the desired approach speed--usually as slow as possible.

The EAA video above just stresses the fact that skids result in default nose-up compensation, with the pilot often inadvertently increasing AOA without even knowing it, whereas the default compensation in a slip is typically nose-down to hold runway heading.

Unlike a slip, where I regularly keep the nose up to maintain my desired approach speed, I wouldn't ever hold my nose up in a "slow as possible" attitude in a skidding turn. I'm a marginal enough pilot as it is, without engaging in base-to-final aerobatics.

RanchPilot wrote:Not sure if you're referring to my comment above, but I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't hold the nose up in a slip. I slip aggressively all the time (I don't have flaps), and I hold the nose wherever I need to in order to maintain the desired approach speed--usually as slow as possible.

Not at all. Just an opinion / response to Matt with a little extra talking involved the last part of your response is my approach to slips as well, might be just a touch kicked out, might be half sideway and just short of the stall...
Take care, Rob

This has been a great discussion. One other thing I've always wondered about is how much effect an aggressive slip has on airflow into the pitot, ie, am I getting an accurate airspeed indication? I also wonder if the disruption is different depending on which way I'm slipping, ie, toward or away from the pitot.

Since I slip a lot, and since I often do it pretty aggressively (usually down to minimum airspeed, as you rightly point out Rob), this discussion has motivated me to go do some slip stalls to answer some of these questions.
I think I'll pass on the skid stalls until I have someone else with me who doesn't mind being upside down.

A canuck student pilot here. I was told that spin recovery training wasn't required for a PPL in the states, can anyone confirm or deny this statement?

I know it's part of the training requirements for a PPL in Canada. Actually, it's required before solo. I'll never forget the first time my instructor demonstrated it. Seeing the world upside down for the first time with under 10 hours dual sure was interesting. Now I seem to enjoy doing them more than my current instructor

FarmerFranck wrote:A canuck student pilot here. I was told that spin recovery training wasn't required for a PPL in the states, can anyone confirm or deny this statement?

It is not required and rarely taught anymore.

FarmerFranck wrote:A canuck student pilot here. I was told that spin recovery training wasn't required for a PPL in the states, can anyone confirm or deny this statement?

I know it's part of the training requirements for a PPL in Canada. Actually, it's required before solo. I'll never forget the first time my instructor demonstrated it. Seeing the world upside down for the first time with under 10 hours dual sure was interesting. Now I seem to enjoy doing them more than my current instructor

In Canada it is required to be taught to us, but if memory serves me correctly it is not part of the flight exam. So ots not really required. I believe it is part of the CPL flight exam, and I believe it is very impirtant to know how to recover from a spin at any level of experience.

A1Skinner wrote:

FarmerFranck wrote:A canuck student pilot here. I was told that spin recovery training wasn't required for a PPL in the states, can anyone confirm or deny this statement?

I know it's part of the training requirements for a PPL in Canada. Actually, it's required before solo. I'll never forget the first time my instructor demonstrated it. Seeing the world upside down for the first time with under 10 hours dual sure was interesting. Now I seem to enjoy doing them more than my current instructor

In Canada it is required to be taught to us, but if memory serves me correctly it is not part of the flight exam. So ots not really required. I believe it is part of the CPL flight exam, and I believe it is very impirtant to know how to recover from a spin at any level of experience.

Correct, not part of the flight exam for PPL.

Clark's explanation in the skidded turn video helped me understand the problems associated with the base to final turn better. I have been unclear on this problem because I have trained many Commercial pilots to crop dust. My biggest problem is getting them to push the nose around in an energy management (no load factor) turn with enough rudder. I picked up on a couple of things in the video that may lead to my problem.

We start the field by spraying crosswind along the downwind border. At the end of the field, we turn downwind a little so that in the base to final turn to the next swath run (50 feet upwind) we are turning into the wind. This upwind turn gives us the slowest ground speed in the turn at the critical time of missing things going into the field or going under the wire. The headwind, on base, also alters the radius of our turn favorably. That is, the whole time we are coming around into the wind (on base) we are a part of an air mass that is drifting toward our target crop row. That is why, at uncontrolled airports and spray strips, we always make our base to final turn into any crosswind. There is no regulation that requires arbitrary right or left turns in the pattern. Since we are low, we always give way to any normal traffic in the pattern and land behind them.

In the video, Clark talks about the pilot not wanting to exceed his maximum bank. In the energy management turn, there is no maximum bank. We turn at whatever bank will cause us to touch down on or fly over the target. The target can be ol Charlie, the desired crop row, the valley before we smack the upwind ridge, or the runway.

In the video, Clark talks about the pilot not wanting to allow the nose to fall through naturally. He wants to hold it up. In the energy management turn, we do not hold any back pressure except to use kinetic energy of pressure airspeed to zoom up out of the field (not necessary in the base to final turn or the canyon turn) and a little back pressure on a very light stick when we have turned so steeply that the nose has pitched down at more angle of descent than is comfortable. And we don't pull back until the wings are level. In the latter case, we have sufficient realized gravity thrust of altitude to compensate for the pitch up reduction in kinetic energy.

The fear of the cross controlled base to final overshoot stall has caused my Commercials to go too easy on the rudder and thus to slip. In a very steep turn, rudder in the direction of the turn actually pushes the nose down as much as around. We want both down and around to get the nose onto the target.

My thanks to you guys for the video. I was confused. My zero timer crop duster students never had this problem because they didn't learn to turn flat (for PTS compliance) until after they had soloed at around six hours. Once we have learned to turn without causing any load factor, it becomes a good habit. Then instrument school and the need for flat, higher load factor, turns. Oh well!

Haven't watched em yet.. Contactflying guy. Your posts make me remember why I never did well in school. It takes me a lot of concentration and brain power to try and decipher your seemingly brilliant Posts. If you would be so kind sometimes to write in plain redneck language sometimes so this duster pilot could learn a few more things. Not a dig but man I feel like there should be an exam after everything I read of yours. Maybe I just need to concentrate harder. Ill read it on the toilet. I think good there.

I made the mistake of reviewing Robert Reser's "How to Fly Airplanes" and he reviewed my "Contact Flying." He fussed a lot about my language and he used very scientific language to explain what I explained in crop duster talk in mine. The educated stuff is pledgerism. I have just started using his really smart sounding and scientific terms.

contactflying wrote:I made the mistake of reviewing Robert Reser's "How to Fly Airplanes" and he reviewed my "Contact Flying." He fussed a lot about my language and he used very scientific language to explain what I explained in crop duster talk in mine. The educated stuff is pledgerism. I have just started using his really smart sounding and scientific terms.

I too had a hard time wrapping my brain around a written description of what you do. Do you know of any good videos to supplement your description?