I ski and I fly but I haven't flown from skis yet. aktahoe's post got me thinking about doing some backcountry skiing via ski plane here in Colorado. There is some great terrain but I have no idea how to determine what lands are legal to land on and which ones aren't. The "it was a precautionary landing due to carb ice" excuse probably wouldn't work well with skier tracks behind the airplane. What are good resources to keep you out of trouble? Is it safe to assume that if the area is open to snowmobiling (as defined as over snow motorized vehicles) that you can operate "over snow aircraft" on the same land?

Get a map . Look at it and try and figure out who owns what . Go fly and land somewhere that looks awesome and see what happens. It's not to hard to identify the no no zones.The more Questions you ask about where you can land , the more no answers you will get . Wilderness areas are a no no from what I understand.Need a permit to pee in a wilderness area.

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BazzLow wrote:I ski and I fly but I haven't flown from skis yet. aktahoe's post got me thinking about doing some backcountry skiing via ski plane here in Colorado. There is some great terrain but I have no idea how to determine what lands are legal to land on and which ones aren't. The "it was a precautionary landing due to carb ice" excuse probably wouldn't work well with skier tracks behind the airplane. What are good resources to keep you out of trouble? Is it safe to assume that if the area is open to snowmobiling (as defined as over snow motorized vehicles) that you can operate "over snow aircraft" on the same land?

Go buy a "off road" sticker, like 4 wheelers /ATV's have to buy and stick in on the plane.. Avoid anyplace that is wilderness and have fun.....

I did find a page on the forest service website that explains over snow vehicles have the same rights to access snowmobile areas as snowmobiles themselves. It defined an over snow vehicle as any vehicle modified to remain above the snow during travel... the link is on a different computer and I'll post it up here tomorrow. Might be good to keep a copy of that with me.

Now just have to get out and do it. Hopefully next month I'll have some pictures to post. Thanks for the replies.

A couple official looking stickers sounds like a pretty good idea too! Colorado avalanche info center, sar, cdot etc

Lemme know what you find out. I'm thinking about getting planks for my cub for snow day play.

BLM is your best bet, you can see BLM ownership here: http://www.geocommunicator.gov/blmMap/MapLSIS.jsp

Make sure you click on "Surface Management Agency" and the BLM Land will show up highlighted in yellow like inthe picture above.

Generally you're not allowed to land on Forest Service lands except at designated airstrips. BLM lands are pretty safe except BLM wilderness lands and a few other areas are off-limits. I don't know about state lands in Colorado. Private lands require permission, but generally you're okay if the area is normally open to the public.

soyAnarchisto wrote:Lemme know what you find out. I'm thinking about getting planks for my cub for snow day play.

You a big skier too? we may have to talk next time at BDU

So with the help from a friend at the usgs here's the gist of what I found:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOC ... 400681.pdf

Note, in the legend the map states: "Over snow vehicles are defined as a motor vehicle that is designed for use over snow and that runs on a track or tracks and/or a ski or skis, while in use over snow." This can also be found in 36 CFR 212.1 for those federal regulations junkies...

There are many other MVUM (motor vehicle usage maps) for the state of Colorado. They are updated every year for winter and summer months.

FLYNAKD wrote:

soyAnarchisto wrote:Lemme know what you find out. I'm thinking about getting planks for my cub for snow day play.

You a big skier too? we may have to talk next time at BDU

I try!

BazzLow wrote:So with the help from a friend at the usgs here's the gist of what I found:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOC ... 400681.pdf

Note, in the legend the map states: "Over snow vehicles are defined as a motor vehicle that is designed for use over snow and that runs on a track or tracks and/or a ski or skis, while in use over snow." This can also be found in 36 CFR 212.1 for those federal regulations junkies...

There are many other MVUM (motor vehicle usage maps) for the state of Colorado. They are updated every year for winter and summer months.

Skis or not it's still an aircraft. How are you going to get around the fact that the AIM (and every sectional chart) says:

7-4-6. Flights Over Charted U.S. Wildlife Refuges, Parks, and Forest Service Areas

a. The landing of aircraft is prohibited on lands or waters administered by the National Park Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, or U.S. Forest Service without authorization from the respective agency. Exceptions include:

1. When forced to land due to an emergency beyond the control of the operator;

2. At officially designated landing sites; or

3. An approved official business of the Federal Government.

Ahh see... there's a loop hole, the reg says "The landing of aircraft is prohibited on lands or waters administered by the National Park Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, or U.S. Forest Service without authorization from the respective agency"

I see nothing prohibiting the landing of aircraft on SNOW

robw56 wrote:Ahh see... there's a loop hole, the reg says "The landing of aircraft is prohibited on lands or waters administered by the National Park Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, or U.S. Forest Service without authorization from the respective agency"

I see nothing prohibiting the landing of aircraft on SNOW

I think that's a practical line of reasoning.
Snowmobiles are allowed in many places that atv's are not.
With a sticker and those rules I think I would just land about wherever I felt like.
At least that's my plan as soon as I can get some ski's

Plus really, are you at all likely to need up with any patrols in most places? All the snow machiners I know are going to think its cool.

What if you landed on grass? Would you have an argument then?

Has anyone actually tried getting permission from a local agency?

I conveniently didn't look up the far about landing on national forest land. I was only thinking about the 2,000ft above reg that has the "except for takeoff and landing" verbage in it. I usually like living by Grace Hopper's rule about asking for permission but when the FAA is involved that's not necessarily the case.

The only advice I'd have is to stay away from the Vail pass area which is exactly where I wanted to go. Its crawling with rangers and you are supposed to pay $7 usage fee per person at the parking lot when you use that whole area between there and Redcliff. They seem to go after people up there and patrol often.

I'll be in Dillon tomorrow. I can stop by the ranger office to ask what hoops I'd have to jump through to get permission. Doesn't sound likely, but who knows.

I was looking at Jones pass near Idaho Springs, but my impression is that all of the more heavily used snowmachine trailheads will have rangers patrolling - but that doesn't mean they'd be out near any LZs. I would sure like to hear that it's possible to get permission in writing, even if it is on a pilot-by-pilot basis.

Cub271 wrote:

BLM is your best bet, you can see BLM ownership here: http://www.geocommunicator.gov/blmMap/MapLSIS.jsp

Make sure you click on "Surface Management Agency" and the BLM Land will show up highlighted in yellow like inthe picture above.

Generally you're not allowed to land on Forest Service lands except at designated airstrips. BLM lands are pretty safe except BLM wilderness lands and a few other areas are off-limits. I don't know about state lands in Colorado. Private lands require permission, but generally you're okay if the area is normally open to the public.

Thats a lot of BLM land! Go get after it!!! I did not look at the map closely but is there any lakes in there? Who controls the water? Betting you wont find any rules against float planes on the BLM land.

Do not land on FS property!

AKT

Those maps are VERY hard to read to determine the surface controlling authority - at least here in Colorado. Most of the state of Colorado shows up as BLM land - even areas I know are private land. I spent an hour trying to make out the legend and map and I am dumber than when I started. Typical government piece of shit software.

I agree, it's sure clunky, and it only shows BLM and BLM Wilderness. It doesn't show other Federal lands or State lands, but it is free. It works best if you make sure you only have "Surface Management Agency" and "Topo Map NGS" clicked on. BLM Land is the yellow overlay and BLM Wilderness is the darker shade of yellow overlay (almost orange).

I would stop asking questions and go flying.