Armed with all of the conventional wisdom I could get beforehand from internet threads, FAA guidance and FE Potts book, I figured pioneering a trail below flying speed and examining the tracks would protect you from the dreaded overflow.

Weather broke and I was finally able to cut my teeth flying with skis on the lakes this past weekend in Upper Michigan and thought l was living the dream: everything went smoooooth. Then I came across this poor guy's C185 battle with overflow and got bummed out:

http://yukonflying.com/DavesStorey.html

Anyone been there? What the heck did/would you seasoned veterans do? I'll be danged if I'm going to leave my pride and joy jacked up and cribbed up on a remote lake for several weeks in hopes things will freeze up and can fly out later.

I'm now trying to formulate what plan and provisions I would need to extricate my plane by myself in this situation. Here is what I've come up with: Place multiple ice screws, utilize aircraft cable with swaged eyes and a come along to incrementally pull the plane out to firm ice. Coarse woody debris could be used to build a ramp at the transition zone. My plane weighs not much more than a snowmobile, so tension on ice screws wouldn't be much.

That gent with the 185 did a great job describing the hazards of overflow and open water. I have stuck a 185 that bad in overflow, and worse in deep snow with multiple crusts. I finally got access to a Husky to do my ski flying, and didn't take the 185 out on skis unless I had to.

Overflow can be sneaky as hell. I've landed and landed and landed, working a set of tracks, when I knew there may well be overflow there, but didn't see anything. Landed, slowed to 5 to 10 mph and then took off again, so most all the weight of the plane was on the gear. Flew away for ten minutes then came back to see if the tracks were black with water....nope.

So, I landed, and just before I came to a stop, the right ski broke through the CRUST I'd been landing on, and fell through into the underlying water, which was around a foot deep. And, it was -30. The plane swung around and pointed right at shore, so power wasn't going to get it out of there. My extrication procedures went pretty much like the guy in the blog posted.

Ski flying is some of the most fun you can have in an airplane. And, it can get really ugly... .

Buried that same 185 during a recurrent check ride, right up to the wings. Had to push the doors really hard to get out.....

Big fun.

And, that gent hit the footwear recommendation right on the head: Bunny boots. Period. I'd have lost toes and maybe feet had it not been for bunny boots.

MTV

dayooper wrote: My plane weighs not much more than a YAMAHA snowmobile...

Fixed it for ya...sorry couldn't resist

rehashing my favorite overflow story...again...

Landing Super Cub on straight Federal 2000's, recognizing we're sinking and throwing water all over...

power Power POWER!!



Made it out...



Better land out in the center of the lake and kick the slush off the skis - before it freezes on like a rock...



Happiness is NOT being stuck in over flow!!

A few more minor overflow examples:







and of course there is always just plain old thin ice and or open water...

Ski flying in a 185 is a completely different game than ski flying in a small plane like a supercub. I'm not sure what plane that is in the initial post, but it looks like a light fabric aircraft that is going to be easier to deal with as a ski plane both in deep snow and in overflow conditions. I've seen 185's get stuck in conditions that my supercub would never have a problem with. My cub never got stuck. A friend dug a ski in very deep snow in his cub and we had the plane out and flying in less than 30 min. Sticking a 185 in deep snow or overflow is........well, as you know from that link, a huge deal.

So, be careful flying your plane on skis, but know that you are not comparing apples to apples if you are worried about how to deal with a situation like that described with the 185. And I'm not suggesting that overflow isn't a big deal for you because it abslolutely is. Do all of the precautionary things to determine if it is safe to land and stop. 185 drivers must consider all of that too, but much much more.

Put another way, my cub would go in and out of the hangar with a simple push/pull on the tail handles. For the 185, I need a powertow and a winch because there are times when I simply cannot move the beast. In snow on skis......just moving it can be a serious problem.

Squash wrote:Ski flying in a 185 is a completely different game than ski flying in a small plane like a supercub. I'm not sure what plane that is in the initial post, but it looks like a light fabric aircraft that is going to be easier to deal with as a ski plane both in deep snow and in overflow conditions. I've seen 185's get stuck in conditions that my supercub would never have a problem with. My cub never got stuck. A friend dug a ski in very deep snow in his cub and we had the plane out and flying in less than 30 min. Sticking a 185 in deep snow or overflow is........well, as you know from that link, a huge deal.

So, be careful flying your plane on skis, but know that you are not comparing apples to apples if you are worried about how to deal with a situation like that described with the 185. And I'm not suggesting that overflow isn't a big deal for you because it abslolutely is. Do all of the precautionary things to determine if it is safe to land and stop. 185 drivers must consider all of that too, but much much more.

Put another way, my cub would go in and out of the hangar with a simple push/pull on the tail handles. For the 185, I need a powertow and a winch because there are times when I simply cannot move the beast. In snow on skis......just moving it can be a serious problem.

Squash: That's what I've begun to think and glad you confirmed it that my plane (1320 lb gw) to a C185 is apples to oranges. If nothing else the article forced me to consider the "what if" and for a small weight penalty I can throw in tools to extricate. thanks.

Thanks: BRD and MTV for "reminiscing" about your overflow experiences

Squash is absolutely correct about the differences between a 185 and a lighter airplane. As I noted, after a lighter ski plane became available to me, I rarely flew the 185 skiplane on snow or ice, and only if the mission demanded it.

That said, can you lift 1320 pounds? It's not EASY to get a Cub or similar airplane stuck, but talent and perseverance can overcome all odds..... The good news, as Squash pointed out, is that at least the extrication process for a lighter airplane is generally a lot quicker and less of a workout.

One of the key factors to consider is one of my hard and fast rules on ski flying: Never land anywhere you're not prepared to spend the night. Really bad overflow can delay your departure, and worst case, it's pretty easy to break things on obstructions, crusts, etc.

Now, all this sounds very alarmist, but as I noted, ski flying is perhaps the most fun and most freedom that you'll find in fixed wing aviation. Landing sites abound. Any time you have that sort of freedom, it's a little easy to get a bit carried away. So, carry survival gear, as in REAL survival gear, wear appropriate clothes, and brush up on your survival skills. None of that may be really necessary if you're landing on lakes with hundreds of fishermen, but.....those guys, as noted before, have a habit of creating traps for ski planes also. The one piece of equipment I highly recommend is Bunny Boots, especially if you're apt to encounter overflow. THey may the only thing that will save your feet in very cold temps.

Most of all, have fun, because ski flying IS a lot of fun.

MTV

mtv wrote:Squash is absolutely correct about the differences between a 185 and a lighter airplane. As I noted, after a lighter ski plane became available to me, I rarely flew the 185 skiplane on snow or ice, and only if the mission demanded it.

That said, can you lift 1320 pounds? It's not EASY to get a Cub or similar airplane stuck, but talent and perseverance can overcome all odds..... The good news, as Squash pointed out, is that at least the extrication process for a lighter airplane is generally a lot quicker and less of a workout.

One of the key factors to consider is one of my hard and fast rules on ski flying: Never land anywhere you're not prepared to spend the night. Really bad overflow can delay your departure, and worst case, it's pretty easy to break things on obstructions, crusts, etc.

Now, all this sounds very alarmist, but as I noted, ski flying is perhaps the most fun and most freedom that you'll find in fixed wing aviation. Landing sites abound. Any time you have that sort of freedom, it's a little easy to get a bit carried away. So, carry survival gear, as in REAL survival gear, wear appropriate clothes, and brush up on your survival skills. None of that may be really necessary if you're landing on lakes with hundreds of fishermen, but.....those guys, as noted before, have a habit of creating traps for ski planes also. The one piece of equipment I highly recommend is Bunny Boots, especially if you're apt to encounter overflow. THey may the only thing that will save your feet in very cold temps.

Most of all, have fun, because ski flying IS a lot of fun.

MTV

So, MTV, given I have a relatively light plane, do you think I could winch it out and onto firm ice in the manner described at start of thread? A come-along, some long lag screws (and perhaps cordless drill) and cable would be all I need to add to my overnight provisions. Not too bad a weight penalty for some really good piece of mind.

Yes, that'll work, with the exception of the lag screws. Buy one or two of these: http://www.rei.com/product/761270/black ... -ice-screw and carry them in your kit. Not cheap, but they'll last forever and they'll hold incredibly well.

Like the Canadian in your blog post, I always carried a length of light aircraft cable and a come along with me in the 185.

Most small airplanes you can muscle around, though, without a lot of further ado. Unless you're REALLY stuck.

A note about getting unstuck: If you have to turn a ski plane around at all, be VERY careful not to torque your gear legs and axles. Those skis induce a HUGE twisting moment to the axles and gear. So, if you need to turn a ski plane, go to the tail, lift and push it a LITTLE, then mosy on back to the skis, and give them a gentle shove in the appropriate direction, then back to the tail, a LITTLE more pivoting, back to the skis (BOTH of them), repeat as necessary. Again, it is REALLY easy to do some very expensive damage turning one of these things around by hand. And, you might also get to test out that camping gear........

MTV

mtv wrote:Yes, that'll work, with the exception of the lag screws. Buy one or two of these: http://www.rei.com/product/761270/black ... -ice-screw and carry them in your kit. Not cheap, but they'll last forever and they'll hold incredibly well.

Like the Canadian in your blog post, I always carried a length of light aircraft cable and a come along with me in the 185.

Most small airplanes you can muscle around, though, without a lot of further ado. Unless you're REALLY stuck.

A note about getting unstuck: If you have to turn a ski plane around at all, be VERY careful not to torque your gear legs and axles. Those skis induce a HUGE twisting moment to the axles and gear. So, if you need to turn a ski plane, go to the tail, lift and push it a LITTLE, then mosy on back to the skis, and give them a gentle shove in the appropriate direction, then back to the tail, a LITTLE more pivoting, back to the skis (BOTH of them), repeat as necessary. Again, it is REALLY easy to do some very expensive damage turning one of these things around by hand. And, you might also get to test out that camping gear........

MTV

thanks, MTV!

Lucky for me I don't land on frozen water much, so this whole topic is not of much interest to me for my ski flying. BUT, I did check out those ice screws, wow those are great! A rope comalong would go great with them, and about 300' of various lines. Who knows what kind of belaying and hauling may be required, and from how far away? When I do do it, it's mostly where I see ice fisherman, which means I have to watch for their leavings. Those frozen mounds of shaved ice would be a bitch to hit, but at least I can be pretty sure the ice is thick enough.

While not often I do land some water, (that's how I think of it) and that is one creepy feeling to slow down and stop, shutdown, and listen (hopefully not to ice cracking) ..... and then it's OK, not my time to get wet today anyway. Using every trick in the book to avoid problems, still a bit creepy! I did land one lake in an extremely remote area (like 40 miles from anything or anybody) the other day, and when I got out it felt like being on the moon, scary and thrilling both, sure felt good to takeoff!

I fell through the ice as a 10 yr old back in Michigan, wearing all that heavy 1960's outdoor clothing, and to this day it's the closet I know that I've been to death. I had a mile run/walk after I got myself out, and the old man would have kicked my ass if he wasn't so glad to see me! I took an iceboat out without permission, my bad. Lots of repect for cold water here

The only problem with rope anything is it stretches, whereas aircraft cable is incredibly strong and doesn't stretch much if any. A rope come along works fine, but your lines, unless pretty short, should probably be something stiffer than rope. I hate it when I get to the limit of the come along and discover that it's all been to take up the stretch in the line..... Of course, there is rope and then again there is rope. Some stretches a lot more than others.

MTV

The type of comalong I refer to is different then a conventional one, a more descriptive term is " a pass through rope comalong." You got 1,000' of rope? Start cranking until you come to the end. I find the one I've been packing in the plane for over a year now (along with over 100' of no stretch mule tape plus low stretch rope) so handy I use it around the shop instead of the other types.

Now, dealing with frozen rope? I missed that little detail......yeah that could be a deal breaker! I heard a fact once on a PBS show about commercial building (bridges etc.)that claimed the invention of wire rope resulted in the highest strength to weight ratio of about any building material, and it works frozen.

mtv wrote:The only problem with rope anything is it stretches, whereas aircraft cable is incredibly strong and doesn't stretch much if any. A rope come along works fine, but your lines, unless pretty short, should probably be something stiffer than rope. I hate it when I get to the limit of the come along and discover that it's all been to take up the stretch in the line..... Of course, there is rope and then again there is rope. Some stretches a lot more than others.

MTV

My greatest takeaway from the fellow in the Yukon was using cable instead of rope. I thought, jeez that's brilliant, little weight and NO stretch. Might as well rig 100+ feet! I'm getting pretty good at crimping the swage fittings with cable eyes, after rigging my skis, so this will be cat's ass.

courierguy wrote:Lucky for me I don't land on frozen water much, so this whole topic is not of much interest to me for my ski flying. BUT, I did check out those ice screws, wow those are great! A rope comalong would go great with them, and about 300' of various lines. Who knows what kind of belaying and hauling may be required, and from how far away? When I do do it, it's mostly where I see ice fisherman, which means I have to watch for their leavings. Those frozen mounds of shaved ice would be a bitch to hit, but at least I can be pretty sure the ice is thick enough.

While not often I do land some water, (that's how I think of it) and that is one creepy feeling to slow down and stop, shutdown, and listen (hopefully not to ice cracking) ..... and then it's OK, not my time to get wet today anyway. Using every trick in the book to avoid problems, still a bit creepy! I did land one lake in an extremely remote area (like 40 miles from anything or anybody) the other day, and when I got out it felt like being on the moon, scary and thrilling both, sure felt good to takeoff!

I fell through the ice as a 10 yr old back in Michigan, wearing all that heavy 1960's outdoor clothing, and to this day it's the closet I know that I've been to death. I had a mile run/walk after I got myself out, and the old man would have kicked my ass if he wasn't so glad to see me! I took an iceboat out without permission, my bad. Lots of repect for cold water here

Tom: In my opinion, I think backcountry ski flying is the greatest secret of GA. The FAA don't care ( no rating required) and insurance company don't care (no rise in premiums, at least on my end). Yeah, the damn skis are $5 Gs, but like you say it's only money, right? Yeah, and there is some risk, but it can can be managed. Look at what we're doing here, we just had a great discourse on the overflow threat and I'm ready to tackle it if I ever find it. All of those remote lakes out there waiting to be tracked! Woo-doggie!!

dayooper wrote:

courierguy wrote:Lucky for me I don't land on frozen water much, so this whole topic is not of much interest to me for my ski flying. BUT, I did check out those ice screws, wow those are great! A rope comalong would go great with them, and about 300' of various lines. Who knows what kind of belaying and hauling may be required, and from how far away? When I do do it, it's mostly where I see ice fisherman, which means I have to watch for their leavings. Those frozen mounds of shaved ice would be a bitch to hit, but at least I can be pretty sure the ice is thick enough.

While not often I do land some water, (that's how I think of it) and that is one creepy feeling to slow down and stop, shutdown, and listen (hopefully not to ice cracking) ..... and then it's OK, not my time to get wet today anyway. Using every trick in the book to avoid problems, still a bit creepy! I did land one lake in an extremely remote area (like 40 miles from anything or anybody) the other day, and when I got out it felt like being on the moon, scary and thrilling both, sure felt good to takeoff!

I fell through the ice as a 10 yr old back in Michigan, wearing all that heavy 1960's outdoor clothing, and to this day it's the closet I know that I've been to death. I had a mile run/walk after I got myself out, and the old man would have kicked my ass if he wasn't so glad to see me! I took an iceboat out without permission, my bad. Lots of repect for cold water here

Tom: In my opinion, I think backcountry ski flying is the greatest secret of GA. The FAA don't care ( no rating required) and insurance company don't care (no rise in premiums, at least on my end). Yeah, the damn skis are $5 Gs, but like you say it's only money, right? Yeah, and there is some risk, but it can can be managed. Look at what we're doing here, we just had a great discourse on the overflow threat and I'm ready to tackle it if I ever find it. All of those remote lakes out there waiting to be tracked! Woo-doggie!!

One final plug for skis is the ease in conversion to wheels. Once the brackets are attached to your gear it's a simple pin connection to remove skis. I love the lack of complexity of wheel penetration skis too. My airspeed appears to be the same (or more??) for same power settting. I'm running TrickAirs: beautiful product and so far great performance.

Slush has really been bad up here this year, but just got a little better with the -20 and -30's last week. I have seen continual slush for almost a mile (in the past), you never know, get into that sort of situation and it can make it tough getting out of a small lake. I feel the same way the others do about the heavier machines, the 185 sits in the barn all winter, I don't even want to think about digging that bugger out of slush, the cub would be bad enough. Great pictures BRD, here are a couple more of my fishing partner. These were taken on a warm day, late last winter. We snowmobiled in, (probably 20 miles), to get to this remote lake, it is not over 1 mile long, almost the whole thing had slush, if we had landed the plane there, it would probably have had to sit there until the snow melted, no Sat phone, so it would have been a long walk home. Also as Mike mentioned, another big plug for Bunny Boots, it is my footwear of choice all winter, even if your feet get wet, they stay warm.

[quote="steve"]Slush has really been bad up here this year, but just got a little better with the -20 and -30's last week. I have seen continual slush for almost a mile (in the past), you never know, get into that sort of situation and it can make it tough getting out of a small lake. I feel the same way the others do about the heavier machines, the 185 sits in the barn all winter, I don't even want to think about digging that bugger out of slush, the cub would be bad enough. Great pictures BRD, here are a couple more of my fishing partner. These were taken on a warm day, late last winter. We snowmobiled in, (probably 20 miles), to get to this remote lake, it is not over 1 mile long, almost the whole thing had slush, if we had landed the plane there, it would probably have had to sit there until the snow melted, no Sat phone, so it would have been a long walk home. Also as Mike mentioned, another big plug for Bunny Boots, it is my footwear of choice all winter, even if your feet get wet, they stay warm.


Alright, that's the third plug for bunny boots. Will have to find a pair....