I just recieved my AOPA email with a story about a accident involving a CFI in training and his instructor who were killed while practicing spins which are required to earn your CFI ticket. What caught my attention in this story was the CFI student had a known history of panicking and even locking his gip on the yoke during stressful situations. One instructor even had to jab his leg to get him to release his "death" grip on the yoke. This student who had a history of this kind of behavior was seaking his "CFI" ticket when he and his instructor were killed while attempting to practice spin recovery. Obviously very tragic. I wish more people would discover flying, but at the same time I know that flying in this three dimentional world (where stressful situations are inevitable) is not for everybody and feel that maybe there are some out there who need to be told that maybe this isn't for you. Any thoughts?

My flight instructor told me 30 years ago the main reason a fire extinguisher is in a plane is for the flight instructor to use on someones head to get them to release control of the stick/yoke.

No fire extinguisher required.... A really quick, HARD pop to the nose with the back of one's hand will almost always get em to turn loose. That is, hard enough to give em a bloody nose. If it breaks something, so be it.

The other side of this, however, is that you really, REALLY need to ease into these things. That means EXTENSIVE ground briefing as to what's going to happen, how we'll go about recovering, etc, etc.

Videos help as well. Bottom line is there should be NO surprises.

That said, I've flown with an instructor or two who did stuff that really got my dander up. That is just pure stupidity.

MTV

back in the mid '70's on my first approach to an airport with my red headed female flight instructor i asked her "what happens if i freeze up on the controls?" and she said "see this fist? if you do you will feel it between your legs". needless to say i have never froze on the controls.

My first spin was a real eye opener. Bumped my head on the liner and grabbed a handful of the oh shit handle. Although I was briefed and had watched videos, I had no idea the world could spin like that.

The smallest instructor can make the most burly student release the controls with two fingers. A stiff index and middle finger jabbed to the adam's apple.

Loooooong ago, and far away.....

I had an instructor who was intent on demonstrating a spin in a C172 since that was our one and only training bird. He couldn't get it to spin on the first couple of attemps, so REALLY went after it. It spun......BUT, it was inverted and fairly flat. He started to attempt recovery right away (1/2 to 3/4 turn, which was his intent-teaching entry and recovery) and wasn't getting results. I didn't count the turns, but fortunately we started real high and burned through way more than either of us liked before we dumped out. It didn't take a lot of perception to see he was getting real scared, too, as he worked the controls. That didn't comfort me at the time, either. When it was over, we went right back to the airport and put it away. We were both shaking pretty bad, and wearing our best macho masks. I have since heard full on spins in a C172 are 'not recomended', but I know 'flat' and 'inverted' are not great variations.We talked about it later (when we could), and he had spun many times in the past and trained student to spin in that same airplane, just not with those variations.

Comments?

The Cessna 172 is a great spinning airplane, with one caveat: They tend to pop out of the spin and transition into a steep spiral, and it can be difficult to note when that transition occurs. The 172 is only approved for spins in the Utility category, though, which requires a VERY light loading and a far forward CG, in part to preclude a spin from going flat.

How did you get it into an inverted spin??? Are you sure you weren't upright? The view out the front looks pretty much the same, actually. I would be pretty surprised also if a 172 would actually recover from a true flat spin. You can probably get a 172 to go flat in a spin, but I doubt it would recover. Take a look at NASA's research on general aviation aircraft spin testing. They did many spins in a 172.

Spins can offer a few surprises, and they are not a maneuver that you want to experience with someone who has met the FAA's "spin training" requirement for the CFI, and nothing more.

No matter WHAT airplane you're dealing with.

MTV

MTV-
I am not going to guarantee anything except it scared the sh!t out of both of us and he worked for quite a while, maybe 30-40 sec (perception-forever) trying different combinations over till one worked. It very much felt inverted(hung by belts, slung to outside of spin), and he felt it was near flat or flat at first. I was training for commercial ticket and didn't know 'jack' (don't know-still just learning) other than what I saw and felt. I recognize fear changes perceptions, but he was experienced at spins, and this was a whole 'nother deal and felt the same airplane attitude as me ..(besides scared). He had done lots of normal spins in the past, including in this bird (would an instructor misrepresent his abilities?).

It was a 'fastback' C172, for what little difference that might make? I had experience with spins in a cub and C150, so it wasn't a brand new experience for me.

I have enough experience in 'life' to know 'perception is not reliable', including mine at such times.

Don't know....... but I was there.

I purchased my Mooney 201 after training 25 hours in a Cessna 152, finishing my private pilot training in the Mooney. Spins are prohibited in the Mooney for what I learned is a good reason. My foray into spin training was unntentional. The stall warning switch was set much to close to the stall and I didn't know that. My instructor wanted to hear the stall warning horn while we practiced MCA flight. He had me doing a left turn at MCA at about 3,500 feet over San Pablo Bay. I guess I didn't have the ball centered real well because all of sudden the plane flipped over onto it's back and I was looking at the cold brown water below. I swear I saw a death's head in that water!

All my new piloting skill came to the fore and I did the right thing, er, well, I yelled at my instructor, "Take the plane!" (I'm sure I didn't add, "and save us!" . . . but I was thinking it.) Pete immediately initiated text book spin recovery, ailerons neutral, full rudder against the spin, stick forward. Still, it took several turns after that to get the ship to stop rotating. He said later that he thought the nose was coming up, going flat. I didn't notice . . . I didn't notice much of anything except that death's head.

I was also afraid of the plane. So I told Pete that I wanted to take spin training, even though that was not required for private. We agreed I wanted to be an instructor so we could do the deed in a 152 without parachutes, and a couple of days later we went out and I learned to spin and recover. Never did do that in the Mooney again, but I did adjust that damn stall warning vane so it would sound 4 or 5 knots above the stall for the rest of my training.

bumper

My experience with inverted spins is a bit counter to what happened to you -- although it's limited to the Citabria/Decathlon series. When inverted (with an inverted -- negative g -- entry), I've found that it actually takes pro-spin input just to keep them IN the spin - that the vertical stab hanging in the wind is stabilizing enough on its own, and you've actually got to take pro-spin action to mitigate that.

But that's with pretty much a standard (but inverted) entry. After spinning a lot of different airplanes and gliders (all aerobatic, except for some 150's), sometimes entering from a botched acro manuever, I've found that every once in a while an airplane will surprise you. (I'll put in the standard here: "what MTV said") Especially when you're entering outside the norm. And the first bit - sometimes a 1/2 turn, sometimes 3 or more, can be really goofey sometimes.

Usually, after some number of turns, things stabilize. Bad news is, sometimes they stabilize in a bad way - making recovery tough (if doable at all). Most I ever did was 12 turns, it stabilized out real nice after about 1 1/2 turns. But that was in a blanik L-13 (glider), a tough, forgiving, and sweet old bird, and entered from 12,000 ft. Gave up 4000' with the spin.

--Tony