https://youtu.be/USSWYPYEUSM

I took the Patrol up for some first time spins. Conventional recovery technique works and should be started a half turn before the heading you want to come out on. A spin could be used to come down through a hole in a cloud deck if you know what is underneath and where the bottom of the layer is...what do you think?

I met a Vietnam vet (Dean Abott) that would spin his birddog through the clouds and pull out below 1,000 ft agl to put rockets in the bad guys. He knew how many spins it took per 1,000 ft to do the job. He said he flew the area a lot so if he had cloud cover he went above until called down, just a normal day for him. Military guys/gals do everyday stuff while somebody is shooting at them!!!!
DENNY

Using spins in that manner I think used to be "the thinking" in some groups although I doubt it was ever truly common place. I'm not old to enough to have "been there and done that," but my dad was a Vietnam guy and my instructor was a korea/Vietnam commander/Air Force test pilot. They both kind of turned up their nose at the usefulness of that technique versus others. Like I said, it's hearsay to me.

I have practiced and used the "emergency let down through clouds" technique spelled out in the Cessna 180/185 POH. Works like a champ with no drama and very predictable.

59SC

fiftynineSC wrote:...I have practiced and used the "emergency let down through clouds" technique spelled out in the Cessna 180/185 POH. Works like a champ with no drama and very predictable. 59SC

Would you care to elaborate?
There's nothing in the mid-50's C180 owners manual about a down-through-the-clouds emergency let-down,
but I'm guessing trim for target airspeed (maybe 80-ish mph?), stay on heading using the rudder, and don't touch the yoke.

In my -170, it is full nose up trim, results in 50-55 MPH, wings level with rudder and sink rate is around 300-500 FPM, depending on loading. Very survivable if the worse happens.

hotrod180 wrote:

fiftynineSC wrote:...I have practiced and used the "emergency let down through clouds" technique spelled out in the Cessna 180/185 POH. Works like a champ with no drama and very predictable. 59SC

Would you care to elaborate?
There's nothing in the mid-50's C180 owners manual about a down-through-the-clouds emergency let-down,
but I'm guessing trim for target airspeed (maybe 80-ish mph?), stay on heading using the rudder, and don't touch the yoke.

Pretty much it, with a few helpful additions I learned from my instructor on how to set up for that or slower. FYI...I hate to post other people's links/stuff in fear of taking credit, but if you google C185 F POH, the full description is in the emergency procedures section (III). It's titled "emergency let down through the clouds". Page 5. I learned this in pilot training and then again in my first 180..a 55 model. works equally well.

I'll summarize that you pick an Easterly or Westerly compass heading and stick with it to avoid compass swings, but I've simulated North and south and it works no problem. Book says to stabilize 110 mph at a 500--800 ft/min descent. Doesn't tell you how though. That's where my instructor simplified it for me if the pilot is in a "high mental work load" situation.

What works for me: Pull power to the bottom of the green, push full prop RPM, trim all the way aft, flaps at 40. Take your hands off of the yoke and steer with your feet. To demonstrate how powerful this is, my instructor made me sit on my hands and then put the airplane in some turns/pitches with my foggles on. Every one, the plane recovered straight and slightly nose down with me never touching the yoke. The flaps 40, trim aft and power setting described put my plane in about an 85 mph 500'/min descent. I'd go try it with an instructor first and play around with it. Works good in training and it worked in real life for me.

That said...this is a procedure for getting an non-instrument rated pilot out of a bind...a big bind in which he never should have been. Also works for a guy with a complete panel SNAFU or one that has a bad case of disorientation. Hence the need to practice the flaps, trim, power setting deal because it takes more of the guess work out of a situation that would probably be pretty stressful in real life; which I can attest to.

59SC

Not to steer to far away from the OP's question. The reference I seemed to locate (one is referenced in Wikipedia of all places under "spin") relate it to early 1920/1930's training on how to get out of cloud when disoriented. The though being that clouds "rarely" extend to the ground. Also mentioned that guys would demonstrate it to their students in the barn storming days. Maybe with most of those guys being military trained or trained by ex-military instructors....they had much more confidence in their ability to recover from a spin than in their instruments!

jugheadF15 wrote:In my -170, it is full nose up trim, results in 50-55 MPH, wings level with rudder and sink rate is around 300-500 FPM, depending on loading. Very survivable if the worse happens.

Is that in the 170 owner's manual?
I looked through my 1953 & 1957 180 manuals and it isn't there.

I'd hesitate to use spins as a method for going down a sucker hole. For most pilots, unless they've done many spins, spinning is pretty disorienting in good weather, let alone while surrounded by clouds. In addition, the recovery pull out takes some altitude and a relatively gentle touch to keep from doing an accelerated stall, so you'd have to be really confident about the bottom of the clouds and that there was enough room to accomplish the task.

In olden times, flight instructor applicants had to demonstrate to the FAA Inspector on the check-ride that they could handle spins. Now instructor applicants only need an endorsement in their logbooks that they are "competent" at spins, show up for their ride in an airplane placarded against spins, and they're good to go. So it's unusual now to find instructors who are comfortable enough doing spins to want to demonstrate them, let alone teach them.

The Inspector I flew with wanted me to recover within 10 degrees of the heading he designated, and I could do that easily--but I'd probably done 100 or more spins by then. But I sure remember that my first spins--the first one especially--but even the first few were pretty disorienting.

So for all those reasons, I'd discourage using spins to descend through clouds. Better to do it the more traditional ways that have been discussed. Best to do it because you're instrument rated and on an instrument flight plan, descending to your destination.

Cary

I knew a gent who did that on rare occasion, and in VERY specific circumstances. That was independently verified by an ATC Specialist I know who "witnessed" one of those episodes via radar.

I think the potentially worst issue one may encounter in this is that virtually all modern airplanes, with the exception of dedicated arrobatic airplanes, are very reluctant spinners. Most spin approved Cessnas I've spun really don't like spinning, though they will, if pushed. But they'll also pop right out of the spin, and transition to a spiral in a heartbeat.

In cloud, that could very well be the end of it.

I don't know how a Bearhawk spins, but before I tried one of these deals, I'd conduct spins of many turns to verify the airplane will remain in a spin. Many airplanes, if you just relax back pressure or rudder input a bit, will transition to a spiral....not good.

Further, how will you KNOW what the cloud base is, and if there's terrain, obstacles nearby?

My friend was a WW II Navy flight instructor in N2S and SNJ aircraft. Somewhat more qualified in spins than me, at least.....

I'd use the procedure described above by folks of maintaining wings level with rudder, and establish a decent rate of descent. Use ATC radar if available to clear traffic and help with terrain/obstacle clearance.

I've done just that in a no gyros Husky after I got caught on top near Fairbanks. Fessed up to ATC and told them what I wanted to do. They gave me a vector and solicited a couple preps for the area for height of bases. Then wished me luck.

Down through 2800 feet of goo to an 1100 foot overcast and five mile vis. After I broke out I informed Approach radar that I was visual, and asked if they wanted me to call when on the ground. "Nope-- no harm, no foul, contact tower now 118....and have a nice day".

MTV

mtv wrote:........ Most spin approved Cessnas I've spun really don't like spinning, though they will, if pushed. But they'll also pop right out of the spin, and transition to a spiral in a heartbeat. ...........

I've also heard of airplanes that would really wrap up into a spin and become unrecoverable after x number of turns.
Esp if loaded with an aft CG.