Pusher wrote:What caught my eye is the position accuracy of the 406 ELT with no GPS input. It is 1-3 NM.

Where I fly it is extremely hard to spot a crashed airplane due to tall trees and the nature of terrain. Most of the time you have to be right above the crashed airplane to spot it.

It's so important to have a GPS feed the aircraft 406mhz ELT. If anyone here has a 406ELT that is not GPS fed, and you have a garmin (or other) portable GPS in the airplane, post a thread and we will try to help you get that wired up.

In the airplane I bought, it came with a ACK 406 without the GPS wire hooked up. It only took an afternoon to fix this. Now whenever I have my Aera 560 docked, the ELT is provided GPS.

akschu wrote:

Pusher wrote:What caught my eye is the position accuracy of the 406 ELT with no GPS input. It is 1-3 NM.

Where I fly it is extremely hard to spot a crashed airplane due to tall trees and the nature of terrain. Most of the time you have to be right above the crashed airplane to spot it.

It's so important to have a GPS feed the aircraft 406mhz ELT. If anyone here has a 406ELT that is not GPS fed, and you have a garmin (or other) portable GPS in the airplane, post a thread and we will try to help you get that wired up.

In the airplane I bought, it came with a ACK 406 without the GPS wire hooked up. It only took an afternoon to fix this. Now whenever I have my Aera 560 docked, the ELT is provided GPS.

This would help out a lot. I have both but not connected to each other. Need to do this for sure.

FWIW I have a Spot Gen3 and use it on a regular basis as I have an offroad business and snowmachine into the depths of the Alaska Range frequently and I have experienced real good reception but luckily have not have needed to test the SOS function. I don't find it as comforting when I fly just because I have the basic plan and it pings to infrequently to show my course changes with any great accuracy.

akschu wrote:...In the airplane I bought, it came with a ACK 406 withouthe GPS wire hooked up. It only took an afternoon to fix this. Now whenever I have my Aera 560 docked, the ELT is provided GPS.

Is it possible to fully test transmission with your aircraft mounted (FAR 91.207) ACK 406/w GPS feed?

1) Signal strength
2) Battery condition
3) GPS communication via hardwire I.e. faults
4) Complete digital packet reception to SARSAT with ID, LAT/LON etc.

I don’t own a fixed CFR 14 91.207 ELT anymore. As mentioned helicopters are exempt. But, this thread got me thinking about SAR and issues I may have missed. Testing personal PLB’s is something that is lacking in my preflight planning and I will add it to the checklist.

Garmin called me once about an emergency. I accidentally switched on the InReach SOS. They were nice about it.

Thank you for your input.

SkyLarkin wrote:This would help out a lot. I have both but not connected to each other. Need to do this for sure.

FWIW I have a Spot Gen3 and use it on a regular basis as I have an offroad business and snowmachine into the depths of the Alaska Range frequently and I have experienced real good reception but luckily have not have needed to test the SOS function. I don't find it as comforting when I fly just because I have the basic plan and it pings to infrequently to show my course changes with any great accuracy.

Tell me which model ELT and GPS you have, and I'll look up the documentation. Also, you are close, so I'd even lend a hand.

schu

8GCBC wrote:

akschu wrote:...In the airplane I bought, it came with a ACK 406 withouthe GPS wire hooked up. It only took an afternoon to fix this. Now whenever I have my Aera 560 docked, the ELT is provided GPS.

Is it possible to fully test transmission with your aircraft mounted (FAR 91.207) ACK 406/w GPS feed?

1) Signal strength
2) Battery condition
3) GPS communication via hardwire I.e. faults
4) Complete digital packet reception to SARSAT with ID, LAT/LON etc.

I don’t own a fixed CFR 14 91.207 ELT anymore. As mentioned helicopters are exempt. But, this thread got me thinking about SAR and issues I may have missed. Testing personal PLB’s is something that is lacking in my preflight planning and I will add it to the checklist.

Garmin called me once about an emergency. I accidentally switched on the InReach SOS. They were nice about it.

Thank you for your input.

The ACK 406 testing procedure only allows the following:

1. Internal self test when powered on or when the reset/test button is pressed:

This transmits on 121.5 for 1 second, and 406mhz for 550ms. There is no power output feedback, only that it think's it's own circuits are good, and you can hear the 121.5 on your aircraft radio or a handheld. There is also beep code that according to the manual looks for these things:

TROUBLE CODES:
2 BEEPS→ BATTERY LOW
3 BEEPS→ LOW RF POWER
4 BEEPS→ FREQUENCY NOT LOCKED
5 BEEPS→ HIGH VSWR OR HIGH CURRENT

2. Testing the GPS interface with a little LED/resistor they show you how to make in the manual. It appears that this is attached to a serial interface, and that the interface only spits something out when the software correctly decodes a NMEA sentence, so you wouldn't see the LED light up unless it was working.


So in regards to your questions, there seems to be some sort of internal signal strength test as well as SWR test, so it appears there is some sort of power meter/swr built in, which should in theory find antenna issues, but who knows how well it works. The battery condition is tested and should be reliable. The GPS communication is tested as it's telling you that it's getting a valid position. There is no complete packet reception to sarsat, or at least not one I could get confirmation of. The self test transmits on 406mhz for 550ms, but I know of no way to confirm they got it, and I suspect it's only to allow the power meter to check it.

So in order to do more complete testing, it might be wise to hook up an external power meter/swr to see how much power it's putting out, or I suppose you could just have a buddy with a handheld at the far end of the airport as the most common point of failure would be antenna or antenna connection, which should be found with a few hundred feet of range.

At the end of the day none of these testing methodologies seem to be complete which is one of the big problems with emergency testing. Honestly, the only true way to truly know is to set it off, wait for the phone call, then say it was an accident, but you didn't hear that from me.

akschu wrote:...At the end of the day none of these testing methodologies seem to be complete which is one of the big problems with emergency testing...

The Feds need to add the testing part to the system. Maybe charge $10.00 to relay a call to a cellular telephone, I don’t know? But, it is a weak link.

I remember when the USCG wouldn’t allow marine VHF radio checks on channel (16) the emergency channel. Made “perfect sense” People complained for several years and finally the rule changed. Now we hear radio checks all day long on (16). The USCG even answers if nobody else does, like in the early morning.

Thank you for the information. I may have to inspect third party ELTs in future for other aircraft.

I had an inadvertent alert on a 406 ELT connected to a Garmin 396. When I talked to RCC I asked them if they could give me a location. They plotted it, and came back to me within a few meters of where I was parked.

That would certainly help in a no joke emergency.

MTV

I have no experience with SPOT, friends have used it and never really had much good to say. I did try the InReach briefly, a Garmin unit and the only experience I had with it was failure. I wouldn't put my trust in either, that said I'm not sure I'm much better off with ELT's and PLB's.
When the Garmin failed I was weathered in on a fishing trip, everything looked right and the guy I was with used the Garmin regularly and said it was good to go, we sent out the message and nothing, no response, the problem is you can't tell whether it did or didn't send, did my wife get the message? Did she not respond? Did this unit not receive her response? Now I carry a Sat phone which has it's own issues and trade offs but at least I know if I got the message to my wife. I'd view the InReach or the Sat Phone as non-emergency comms and the PLB and ELT as emergency units.

I also have an Inreach and have never had a problem. Its been over a year since I used it but as I recall once you send a text it will tell you when a Sat have received it so you know it at least went out.

a3holerman wrote:I also have an Inreach and have never had a problem. Its been over a year since I used it but as I recall once you send a text it will tell you when a Sat have received it so you know it at least went out.

I checked mine over lunch.

Spins while it’s trying. Bullseye when it’s confirmed sent.

Also, the red led on the top left corner flashes while there is a message in the queue that hasn't been sent yet.

All of that said, one possible issue to consider is that you are trusting the SMS text message system work on the PSTN (public switched telephone network) to text someone which might break if you have a lame cell carrier blocking stuff.... It's probably best to text all of the people you would reasonably want to text from the inreach before going into the field to make sure stuff works.

As for SOS, the garmin page says "Information for handling SOS emergencies provided to GEOS Worldwide, Ltd."

So apparently they contract with that outfit for the SOS hand over. More information here:

https://support.garmin.com/en-GB/?faq=d ... tab=topics

I didn't read all 71 comments before I'm commenting but my spot also stopped working at an inopportune time. No emergency for me but no help from them, either, so I bought an inReach.

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akschu wrote:Also, the red led on the top left corner flashes while there is a message in the queue that hasn't been sent yet.

All of that said, one possible issue to consider is that you are trusting the SMS text message system work on the PSTN (public switched telephone network) to text someone which might break if you have a lame cell carrier blocking stuff.... It's probably best to text all of the people you would reasonably want to text from the inreach before going into the field to make sure stuff works.

As for SOS, the garmin page says "Information for handling SOS emergencies provided to GEOS Worldwide, Ltd."

So apparently they contract with that outfit for the SOS hand over. More information here:

https://support.garmin.com/en-GB/?faq=d ... tab=topics

Also, in addition to the red flashing light and the spinning wheel icon, I forgot to mention that I also heard an audible noise right before the text message was received.

Also, any actual messages I send go to both text and emails. I think that’s a good plan for just-in-case sms issues happen. Thoughts?

. . .

In the context of this discussion, who cares why the pilot flew into the canyon. He crashed and the ELT was damaged and didn’t work. That’s the important point.

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FWIW, it seems to me that important points are many. They all lead toward a foreseeable, bad outcome for the pilot and any pax.

So, perhaps the pilot/owner did not have a panel switch for the ELT in the aircraft. That's an install problem, and maybe also a cost savings decision the pilot later regretted. Was the ELT installed by the pilot or a shop? If the aircraft had a remote activation panel switch perhaps the pilot could have triggered the 406 ELT in the air. SAR would have launched with a reasonable idea of where to look. All of the shop 406 installs I've seen in the last several years have the panel switch to activate in the air. I've seen a few owner installs that relied on the G-switch to activate.

Did the plot have a moving map in the cockpit, or other navigation tools to aid with S.A.? I really think the problem of lacking or losing very good S.A. while scud running ranks way ahead of the ELT breaking loose in the crash.

Was the ELT "secured" with the well known failure prone vecro wrap? Did the installer 'forget' to loop the antennae wire to reduce chances of it pulling out of the ELT in a crash? I.e., why did the ET break loose from its cradle whe the plane nosed over?

I'm all for having a backup or two if the ELT fails. Stuff happens.

PapernScissors wrote:

. . .

In the context of this discussion, who cares why the pilot flew into the canyon. He crashed and the ELT was damaged and didn’t work. That’s the important point.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

FWIW, it seems to me that important points are many. They all lead toward a foreseeable, bad outcome for the pilot and any pax.

So, perhaps the pilot/owner did not have a panel switch for the ELT in the aircraft. That's an install problem, and maybe also a cost savings decision the pilot later regretted. Was the ELT installed by the pilot or a shop? If the aircraft had a remote activation panel switch perhaps the pilot could have triggered the 406 ELT in the air. SAR would have launched with a reasonable idea of where to look. All of the shop 406 installs I've seen in the last several years have the panel switch to activate in the air. I've seen a few owner installs that relied on the G-switch to activate.

Did the plot have a moving map in the cockpit, or other navigation tools to aid with S.A.? I really think the problem of lacking or losing very good S.A. while scud running ranks way ahead of the ELT breaking loose in the crash.

Was the ELT "secured" with the well known failure prone vecro wrap? Did the installer 'forget' to loop the antennae wire to reduce chances of it pulling out of the ELT in a crash? I.e., why did the ET break loose from its cradle whe the plane nosed over?

I'm all for having a backup or two if the ELT fails. Stuff happens.

There are many important points, but the discussion of why someone flew into the wrong canyon or why their ELT failed isn't super relevant to this thread. Lots of good threads turn into semi-readable clutter because of all the important aspects of any given scenario which warrant discussion, but take the thread off topic. Not trying to lecture, just trying to keep a thread with a lot of good content from going off on a tangent...or more of a tangent...

I see on a different forum that the OP was indeed contacted by Spot and has accepted a new unit and a free year.

Hmm.. wonder why he did not post that here?

I would post the information I found here but the site will not let me paste it in. Sorry.

Here's the updates from the guys post.


"Update: Thank you so much for sharing this story. I hope it saves someone’s life. I just received a call from a high manager at SPOT after this went viral. Sad that it took that for someone in the company to think this was serious. We’ll see what they do to make it right and assure us that their products are reliable. I’ll keep you posted

Update #2: SPOT management just called me again(the morning after this went viral) They are very apologetic and sound very sincere in there concern about what happened to us. I think it’s sincere but also a bit of damage control. They tell me that this is a “one off” that this unit worked(or rather didn’t work) in the manor described. They are taking both of our Gen3 SPOT devices to see what happened. In addition they are sending me the new SPOTX that offers texting so that I can verify that it’s indeed working. In addition they are giving me a free one year extension on my plan. They say it’s the least they can do. So for now I will accept the SPOTX and subscription and try it out for the next 17 months. I will however be supplementing it with another device and an Eprib. So long story short I think I got a bad manager the first time I called. He didn’t seem to care about the gravity of the situation. Didn’t even ask for the defective unit to test it. And of course even worse telling me to sell replacement SPOT product on Ebay to buy another SPOT product. He really acted like a blocking agent rather than a problem solver. However now the upper management is trying to make it right and show us how serious they consider these devices to be to us. They tell me they are going to use this as a training tool for their employees. I’m still apprehensive to trusting a gen3 after what happened. If you have one in my opinion I’d get it checked even if it’s still working in the “OK” function it may not be working in the SOS function as mine did. I thought it only fair that SPOT had a voice in this too that’s why I’m giving these updates. They tell me they have over 6000 rescues. My goal is to inform others because of the life saving nature of the device.

***From SPOT:*****************************

“SPOT LLC takes this incident very seriously. Mr. LeDoux is sending us his device and we will be conducting a full assessment of it. We have confirmed that the second device in question was previously deactivated at the customer’s request. SPOT products are used daily to initiate emergency communications, many resulting in life-saving rescues. Over the past 10 years, SPOT devices have initiated over 6,000 rescues worldwide. We have hundreds of thousands of subscribers that depend on SPOT service and they can rest assured that it remains as reliable as ever. If any customers have questions or concerns about their SPOT device, please contact our customer service team at 1(866)651-7768.”
**********************************************
^^^In reference to Kris’ SPOT its a good idea to double check your subscription. Kris was unaware for various reasons that his had expired until SPOT investigated this incident."

In reference to Kris’ SPOT its a good idea to double check your subscription. Kris was unaware for various reasons that his had expired until SPOT investigated this incident.

This brings up 3 good points:

1. The PLB could never have this mode of failure, there is no subscription.
2. Testing your spot/inreach before leaving is so important, it would catch this issue.
3. Is there anyway to know the subscription status in the field with an inreach other than doing the self test? Perhaps you would get a no subscription reply the second you started tracking. Anybody know?

My experience was that it was a pain to get unsubscribed from SPOT. It’s hard for me to believe someone could be unsubbed accidentally.

akschu wrote:3. Is there anyway to know the subscription status in the field with an inreach other than doing the self test? Perhaps you would get a no subscription reply the second you started tracking. Anybody know?

I believe it tells you to check subscription status on the display like a new unit would do. I'm not going to deactivate mine to find out, but I recall when I shut off my old one to upgrade it that it did indicate it wasn't active any longer.