A friend and I have been discussing various aircraft that fit into the LSA catagory that are of recent manufacture. Warantee concerns and having something newer would be nice compared to both of our recent experiences with having vintage airplanes that seem to require a continual supply of replacement parts. Just like old collectors cars, seems like there is always something needing fixing or replacement. The parts searching can get frustrating at times.

Of course the 'gotta have it' plane these days seems to be the Carbon Cub. Unfortunately it is priced in the unobtainium catagory for a great many of us on these forums. Even used one's are quite high priced since the demand is high.

One option might be the CC Sport Cub with the O-200. Had a discussion with a good friend yesterday that confirmed my thoughts that one of these with the modified engine (HC pistons making 120 HP) would turn the plane into a faux Super Cub yet be LSA.

The other option we have talked about is the American Legend Super Legend/Super Legend HP. I looked at this plane last year while at Oshkosh and it looked like a nice plane. Unfortunately I was not able to make it to Oshkosh this year so wasn't able to gte any updates on it. Since I don't see much said about these planes. Anyone out there flown of have any experience with the plane or company? I will mention that the price is considerably less than the CC from what I understand.

Mike Taylor down at Sulphur Springs, Texas is a nice guy and pushes my book as one his customers should read. If I could afford any new airplane, their Cub, with the Continental 0-200, would be my choice. Like the 90 hp Super Cub, it is a nice balance. Going straight up scares the poop out of me anyway.

It's interesting what makes it and what doesn't. When Maule introduced their 2 seat M4-180V a few years ago (or probably more like 10), I woulda guessed that it would provide pretty good competition for the Cub Crafters Top Cub (this was pre-Carbon Cub) and the Husky, esp with it's price of right around $100K. Yet they didn't make very many of them, and not for very long.

Now with LSA, I figured Kitfox would make a killing with their ready-to-fly Super Sport S-LSA, but that doesn't appear to have been the case. Even with the relatively low current base price of $96K, I don't think they've sold all that many of them.

Yet the Carbon Cub (kits or ready-to-fly?) seems to be selling like hotcakes.

Do you still own your S-7? What about the S-20 Raven?

WW,

I took off at JC after several CC's, while I have no idea how hard they were "trying", or what their load was, but I did hear afterwards that my take off was considerably shorter. I don't lust after one myself, the S-7S does what I need better for half the operating expense. I like them, don't get me wrong, great workmanship on the ones I've seen. That 180 horse engine just isn't going to help a bit when landing short and steep, just more weight to decelerate. I always have to wonder when pilots are discussing back country aircraft and bigger and bigger engines are proposed, like that's going to help the all around performance. I stick my head in a CC, or a Husky for that matter, and I think "about the same amount of interior room, and only one smaller door?" I do like those big ass extended baggage areas though! Maybe if I needed to fly a big passenger and I was a big guy AND we needed to haul a lot of whatever, it's be a different story. The Legend company seems to be doing a great job with their birds, but I don't want one of those either, it wouldn't be any better, or at least enough better, in any one area to justify the increased operating cost.

Bare bones, it's north of $155 K. Certainly cheaper than a Carbon Cub, but certainly not cheap. I looked at a couple of them at OSH, and they look nice.

There are a few things I really don't like about them: The left side door is high on that list. Every Cub door/window I've ever met leaks air, typically a lot. Now you've got stereo air leaks. In Texas, that may not be a big deal, but in northern MN......it's an issue.

Also, putting that left side door in requires that the throttle be moved. I've tried that out, and I REALLY don't like the ergonomics of that throttle placement.

Those are about my only concerns, but I haven't flown one of these either. They are nice looking, and I too am wondering why they aren't selling more. Sometimes it's hard to figure out why one plane sells and another doesn't.

But, consider that for $25K less, you can purchase a pristine, totally rebuilt Super Cub, with virtually everything new.....new fuselage, new fabric, and all new wear items. Effectively a new airplane.

And, there are a number of vendors that can sell me a brand new example of every part in that airplane if and when I need it. Want to personalize it? There are dozens of STCs out there. An LSA can't be modified unless the manufacturer makes the mod, essentially. E-LSAs are a little better. But, there's only going to be one source for most of the parts on taht airplane.

Me, I'd rather buy the Super Cub and spend the extra cash on gas.

Want a light sport compliant plane? Buy a PA-11 which all these airplanes are essentially copies of, or a champ/Taylorcraft, etc.......Same thing-buy one that's been totally rebuilt and you've got essentially a new airplane.

MTV

MTV

MTV

Don't forget the J-5 !!
Lots of room in rear seat to see around the jerk up front.

Trim

I agree Trim. J-5 was a good Pawnee trainer as well. Both need to be pitched level near stall just before the mains touch down or they will jump up and down on the bungees a bit without leaving the ground.

Wow, thanks guys!

I will be upfront and mention that this inquiry is mostly for a friend, I am also interested in the same thing but it would be a couple of years down the road before I decide. I really like the RANS S7, and no, I have not sold it. Only reason for me would be to get something new that I wouldn't have to 'tinker' with. My S7, as most of you may know, sat for 11+ years unflown. Typical with something that has not been flown, there are a lot of things that need tending/fixing.

Mike, the two door thing is something I hadn't thought about but is a definite concern up here in the frigid northland. Guess I could just play Red-Green and duct tape the edges on the one I don't use. I also think a nice restored PA-11 would be great, but it is still an old plane. My Champ had been totally restored but there were still items that, due to old age, were fatigued and wore out. I am going to go strictly LSA and will be selling my 172. Was keeping for my son but he bought a beautiful 170B so no sense in keeping it any longer.

Tom, I am in total agreement about the performance and overall capabilities of the S-7 compared to the cub clones and really not ready to give up on these Rotax wonders quite yet. A new S-7 or S-20 are close to the top of my list, even the new Kitfox is a contender.

Got to say, I was quite pleased with the wife. I had filled up the tanks on the S-7 last night, shut off the light and went into the house. This afternoon I was in the hanger fixing a bush hog and saw gas dripping on the floor uder the plane. ARGH!!! The grommet that goes into the top of the tank for the fuel 'guage' line was weeping, unfortunately I propbaly lost at least a gallon or more. Had to drain the fuel down below the grommet and mentioned the issue to the wife. Since she sees my constant working on things she said, how much would a new one like it cost. Told her there was a sale at Oshkosh for a new one priced at $100K. She said why don't you just sell all these other planes and buy one new one!!! Doubt I could get that much money out of all the stuff I have but I wouldn't have to finance much. The 'ol gears in the head are full speed ahead!!

Thanks again everyone!

WWHunter wrote:
I am going to go strictly LSA and will be selling my 172. ...and...
A new S-7 or S-20 are close to the top of my list, even the new Kitfox is a contender.

The Bearhawk LSA has not been mentioned. I was out in Fincastle, Virginia a few weeks ago and saw all three Bearhawk models parked in hangars. I took this pic. The BH LSA is a nice plane. It is kind of like a Bearhawk Patrol Lite minus flaps.Very clean wings, Single strut. Maybe worth comparing to the S7 and S20 before you pull the trigger.

WWhunter wrote:Wow, thanks guys!

I will be upfront and mention that this inquiry is mostly for a friend, I am also interested in the same thing but it would be a couple of years down the road before I decide. I really like the RANS S7, and no, I have not sold it. Only reason for me would be to get something new that I wouldn't have to 'tinker' with. My S7, as most of you may know, sat for 11+ years unflown. Typical with something that has not been flown, there are a lot of things that need tending/fixing.

Mike, the two door thing is something I hadn't thought about but is a definite concern up here in the frigid northland. Guess I could just play Red-Green and duct tape the edges on the one I don't use. I also think a nice restored PA-11 would be great, but it is still an old plane. My Champ had been totally restored but there were still items that, due to old age, were fatigued and wore out. I am going to go strictly LSA and will be selling my 172. Was keeping for my son but he bought a beautiful 170B so no sense in keeping it any longer.

Tom, I am in total agreement about the performance and overall capabilities of the S-7 compared to the cub clones and really not ready to give up on these Rotax wonders quite yet. A new S-7 or S-20 are close to the top of my list, even the new Kitfox is a contender.

Got to say, I was quite pleased with the wife. I had filled up the tanks on the S-7 last night, shut off the light and went into the house. This afternoon I was in the hanger fixing a bush hog and saw gas dripping on the floor uder the plane. ARGH!!! The grommet that goes into the top of the tank for the fuel 'guage' line was weeping, unfortunately I propbaly lost at least a gallon or more. Had to drain the fuel down below the grommet and mentioned the issue to the wife. Since she sees my constant working on things she said, how much would a new one like it cost. Told her there was a sale at Oshkosh for a new one priced at $100K. She said why don't you just sell all these other planes and buy one new one!!! Doubt I could get that much money out of all the stuff I have but I wouldn't have to finance much. The 'ol gears in the head are full speed ahead!!

Thanks again everyone!

I heard Rans was offering a show special price at Oshkosh from 129k to 100k as you mentioned above for an S-7. That would be a smokin deal for someone wanting a fly away version. Lots of capability/performance for the money. I understand you being tired of tinkering on your older model.

Jim

Boy, if I were thinking Rans, I'd really take a hard look at the S-20. Same basic airplane and performance, but side by side seating for your significant other and a HUGE baggage area for camping gear.

MTV

I ferried a Legend Cub from Austin TX to Tuscon AZ...with just 100 HP. It was light sport of course and no flaps. I don't know what your friend wants but it was great fun and had plenty of short field or no field performance even pretty high and hot as long as you don't want to go more than about 85 mph cruise. I can understand the concern about the extra ventilation in very cold climates but the doors seemed to seal pretty well to me. I loved the dual doors and most of my trip was spent at 100 feet agl following the railroad tracks with both doors open. With any wind you can land it at almost walking speed. Basically a PA-11 with an o-200...in other words perfection.

WWhunter wrote:A friend and I have been discussing various aircraft that fit into the LSA catagory that are of recent manufacture. Warantee concerns and having something newer would be nice compared to both of our recent experiences with having vintage airplanes that seem to require a continual supply of replacement parts. Just like old collectors cars, seems like there is always something needing fixing or replacement. The parts searching can get frustrating at times.

Of course the 'gotta have it' plane these days seems to be the Carbon Cub. Unfortunately it is priced in the unobtainium catagory for a great many of us on these forums. Even used one's are quite high priced since the demand is high.

One option might be the CC Sport Cub with the O-200. Had a discussion with a good friend yesterday that confirmed my thoughts that one of these with the modified engine (HC pistons making 120 HP) would turn the plane into a faux Super Cub yet be LSA.

The other option we have talked about is the American Legend Super Legend/Super Legend HP. I looked at this plane last year while at Oshkosh and it looked like a nice plane. Unfortunately I was not able to make it to Oshkosh this year so wasn't able to gte any updates on it. Since I don't see much said about these planes. Anyone out there flown of have any experience with the plane or company? I will mention that the price is considerably less than the CC from what I understand.

I have an American Legend AL11 with the O200. Absolutely love it! Burns a little over 5 gals/hour. Doesn't go anywhere fast just the way I like it. Get about 85 knots outta it when need it. Doors on both sides give a great breeze to blow the air on my bald head. Also makes entry significantly easier for the larger and older folk that ride along with me. The Legand Cubs are priced lower than the Carbons from what I've seen. I bought it from a friend who turned around and bought a Super American Legand AL18 with the lycoming. I think it's 115hp. He loves it as well. Those guys down there in Supler Springs Texas are awesome and take good care of us.

Have to put my vote in for the F 19 Taylorcraft performs almost as well as the super cub on 100 horse and probably performs better than anything else on 100 horse . Of course not comparing to the experimental category in that statement at all

Like you mentioned in you post.....sport cub. If you haven't flown one please do. With the weight and the stock engine it's pretty much "the standard" in that class.

mtv wrote:Boy, if I were thinking Rans, I'd really take a hard look at the S-20. Same basic airplane and performance, but side by side seating for your significant other and a HUGE baggage area for camping gear.

MTV

Amongst the hard core RANS S-7S pilots, there does not seem to be a land rush towards the S-20. We all (speaking for the group ) really like the fact that Randy S is continuing on in new designs, and we have no doubt it will be as well supported as the rest of his designs, and it OF COURSE will fly well, as it has an S-7 wing. We REALLY like that part! More then anything, it seems to be the old tandem v. side by side thing. When it first came out, it made me think long and hard about my T-Craft, Avid Magnum, and Kitfox time, and all the advantages of side by side.

Leaving aside the benefits of having your significant other right next to you rather then in back, out of reach as it were, we seem to prefer tandem, resoundingly. I'm not sure if I fly mostly solo because I have a tandem, or if I fly tandem because I fly mostly solo, but the viz is hard to beat with any other configuration.

How many here have a car or truck with one freaking door? I go long periods without using my "extra" door, but I am always glad to have it available. I tape the rarely used door inside come winter, minor wind draft problem solved. The throttle: I've flown a Super Cub and a J-3 several times, I didn't find the throttle position any more or less convenient, my S-7S throttle falls readily to hand, it's just a bit lower to clear the door, but by no means even a minor stretch, right there in fact, just a tad lower. I think it comes down to whatever a person gets used to?

I may make it up to Seeley Lake, Montana this summer, where a S-20 build is under way, maybe I'll change my mind and jump ship, after all it has the wing I like! The time I flew the S-20, I failed to heed Randy's instruction on sliding my seat forward. Later I found out that when slide forward, it also goes up. Lot's of headroom also, so a seat pad would improve the over the nose viz even more, maybe to as good as my 7.

I had a buddy back when I was flying the 65 hp T-Craft, but he had a 0-200 in his 1940 T Cart. The benefits were obvious, I'm sure the F19 would be a great choice. What I like about the S-7/S-7S, is that is flies a lot like my T-Craft, on the wing, not on the engine, any T-Craft pilot would like the S-7, and versa vice, I do anyway. And I STILL say a T-Craft with a Rotax 912-S would be a great airplane, legalities aside

I like everything about the Bearhawk LSA, including the company. BUT, I'm not sure what it is.... but it looks a little "dowdy" to me, that fuselage viewed from the side doesn't look as "svelte" as my S-7S, or a Highlander or T-Craft for that matter. Love that wing for sure, and again, one with a Zippered 912S would kick ass (sorry Bob).

The big detriment of the tandem, for the instructor, is that apparent rate of closure and directed course to the numbers are not as accurate from the back seat. You have to tell the student to slow down when it appears you are going slow enough.

Everyone, Thank you for the valuable comments regarding the Legend Cubs, Rans S7, and Rans S20. I have been looking at these three for several years and hope to make a purchase sometime this fall.

With almost 20 years of Champ experience, I'm definitely partial towards the Rans S7 and the Legend Cub. When comparing the S7 to the Legend Cub, the S7 appears to win from an empty weight, cabin space, and overall performance perspective. Do you agree? However, I'm curious about short-field performance with the limited flap extension capability and the new landing gear. it does not appear that the new gear would do well in a steep decent - too much bounce...

Although I originally did not give the S20 a serious look, as I have learned more about the aircraft, it may be the best aircraft of the three. The 40 degrees of flaps, large baggage, better cruise, passenger comfort, etc. In particular, I'm interested in your thoughts regarding the S7 flaps (roughly 20-25 degrees) versus the S20 (40 degrees) and the impact on STOL capabilities, etc. Thanks, Eric

I flew the S-20 with Randy and with full flaps on landing, It comes down like a stone. Never flown the S-7. Should receive my S-20 kit in October.