Since watching some of Aktahoe's films, and a whole host of AK web films, I have started practicing my tail up-taxi turns. Now I know I'm playing with fire, especially after Kevin lunched his engine... but if one were to do it, I thought one should know just how much room he/she had to play with.

While I had the Skywagon in flight attitude during the W&B, I went ahead and measured the clearance from the deck to the prop tip. Turns out it was way way way more than it "felt" from the pilot seat. (had I tried)

In my case, with an 82" Mac, I have 18".

Here's some bozo taxiing with his tail up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDsLVlaBClY

Lol, looks like the guy in the left seat needs a hat.

I use to do that....

...when I was an immortal kid. Until the day that I was showing off and put the Citabria prop deep into the concrete.

Never more sayeth the Raven.....Never more.

Bob

NOT what I pictured in my mind when I read the thread title....

Where I learned to fly (Scottsdale Mun. now!) we had a fairly long runway (no taxiways) and very little traffic. It was 'good form' among us kids (teenage student pilots) to fast taxi tail up in our J-3 to clear the runway when we needed to get to the other end. We got used to a pretty fast taxi in our Cessnas, too . When I was at a towered airport and moving along at a fast clip on a taxiway, the tower guys took offense, and called me out on the radio-that if I taxied any faster than a fast walk again they would write me up! What a wake up call!

.....So mentally I pictured getting a clearance from the tower/GC to fast taxi. HA!

lc

Obviously.....

...those controllers never worked ground control at Chicago's O'Hare airport. 30 mph might be average on a slow day.

bob

bigrenna It looks like you like you would fit in here. http://www.airnav.com/airport/8MA4 .rnwy 29 is preferred landing with 11 departure.Feel free to drop in.My cell is 978-897-7770

Bill

Perfect... Will swing on by.

bigrenna wrote: Since watching some of Aktahoe's films, and a whole host of AK web films, I have started practicing my tail up-taxi turns. Now I know I'm playing with fire, especially after Kevin lunched his engine...

It seems to me that there's an expression about learning from others' mistakes.....now how did that go again?

Littlecub wrote::lol: NOT what I pictured in my mind when I read the thread title....

It was 'good form' among us kids (teenage student pilots) to fast taxi tail up in our J-3...
lc

My first trip in the J-3 on skis included the following explicit instructions: Do NOT lower the tailwheel, ever, because it will act like a boat anchor (no ski back there). You will stop in an instant, your skis will freeze into this Midwestern snow and it's too cold so we will not come out to help you. OK, so off I went as a bulletproof 16/17 yr old kid. Had a great time and on the way back to the hangar after playing around, realized that all that snow made taxiways and runways unnecessary. I bee-lined for the tiedown, even took a shortcut... It was nearly my first experience with the chain of events that lead to an accident. Shortcut, flat light, snowdrift, no brakes... you see where this is going... the "clearance" I got was about 4in from the wingtip of a parked P-51. The Mustang would have won that fight easily. Proud to say though, I didn't flinch and my tailwheel didn't touch the ground until I maneuvered into the tiedown.

Don't think I could be so lucky these days.

If you are landing on a long runway and need to go to the other end and don't want to get into the bad habit of landing long, consider the hover taxi rather than the fast taxi with the tail up.

It is good practice to land on the numbers every time. Using the apparent brisk walk rate of closure (power/pitch) approach with full flaps (if we have them,) we can arrive at the numbers at or below (downwind with lots of power) stall speed. We have ground speed under control and are not going to inadvertently smack anything. Just before touchdown, we add enough power to prevent touchdown. We dynamically and proactively use fore/aft stick movement and dynamically use power (the throttle is a control) to stay between six inches and three feet above the runway. Any turning we need to do will be rudder only, with cross controlled aileron to keep the wing level. Ground effect and a little power more than make up for the lift lost by skidding. A short distance before the desired taxiway or ramp area, we close the throttle to touch down and begin normal taxi.

This technique is easier on the tires, brakes, and prop. It works as well on rough ground as a concrete runway.

contactflying wrote:If you are landing on a long runway and need to go to the other end and don't want to get into the bad habit of landing long, consider the hover taxi rather than the fast taxi with the tail up.

It is good practice to land on the numbers every time. This technique is easier on the tires, brakes, and prop. It works as well on rough ground as a concrete runway.

For the sake of argument, I fail to see the difference between "landing long" and "hover taxiing" up to your intended runway exit. Also, why do you say that its good practice to land on the numbers every time?? Aside from what you are taught in "FAA private pilot landing 101" , whats the diff between a precision landing on the numbers, compared to a precision landing 2 runway lights prior to your exit, or a touchdown next to the third bush after the willow tree?? (please consider the use of a backcountry type airplane in the afforementioned examples )

bart wrote:

contactflying wrote:If you are landing on a long runway and need to go to the other end and don't want to get into the bad habit of landing long, consider the hover taxi rather than the fast taxi with the tail up.

It is good practice to land on the numbers every time. This technique is easier on the tires, brakes, and prop. It works as well on rough ground as a concrete runway.

For the sake of argument, I fail to see the difference between "landing long" and "hover taxiing" up to your intended runway exit. Also, why do you say that its good practice to land on the numbers every time?? Aside from what you are taught in "FAA private pilot landing 101" , whats the diff between a precision landing on the numbers, compared to a precision landing 2 runway lights prior to your exit, or a touchdown next to the third bush after the willow tree?? (please consider the use of a backcountry type airplane in the afforementioned examples )

Exactly what I was thinking. From time to time I get a charter to Anchorage and I can't convince dispatch or the passengers that Lake Hood or Merrill is the way to go. International it is. Once there I can take it up the @$$ and accept the 4 mile taxi from "on the numbers" landing runway 14, or I can beg for 7L and a long landing, about 300-1,000' from the taxiway to Signature East depending if I'm stuck in the turd nugget (Lance) or one of the Cessna's.

bart wrote:

contactflying wrote:... and don't want to get into the bad habit of landing long .....

........why do you say that its good practice to land on the numbers every time?? Aside from what you are taught in "FAA private pilot landing 101" , whats the diff between a precision landing on the numbers, compared to a precision landing 2 runway lights prior to your exit, or....

I agree. If anything, it's better to get used to landing somewhere other than smack-dab on the numbers. For some reason I find that it's harder to land on a particular spot (like next to that runway light Bart mentioned) than right on the numbers. I quite often come up a bit short-- or would if I didn't add some power. I quite often land at midfield if I'm planning on staying on a (long-ish) runway until the very end.

I like to fast taxi tail up, when forced to be on pavement, to reduce wear on the Bushwheels. Anyone else do this, or think this helps (the tires, not the prop!) My theory anyway is that unloading the tires somewhat has to help..... turns I make slow. Again, when forced to land on the pavement, usually by a tower, I'll shoot for the turnoff I will be taking, landing on the #'s is too far away usually. Sometimes though I am still faced with a 1/4 mile taxi and conditions permitting I'll make it fast. Unless ordered not to by the tower, if any. Otherwise, assuming there are no other planes around, it's nobodys damn business how fast I taxi, for sure not someone on the unicom. And yeah, the tower closures in my area are being looked forward to!

FWIW, the slipper clutch on the Rotax 912 makes a prop strike less of a life changing event, keep in mind this is coming from a pilot who has trashed ONE blade of a three blade prop in two different events, (NOT by tail up taxiing, a failed brake line once and the other a misplaced sagebrush) with no ill effects to the engine. I think this may be some kind of record

Two things, I find in favor of the apparent rate of closure approach followed by the hover taxi. First, I am more comfortable with assurance I will make the landing without need for brakes, even at a short strip. Second, I would rather hover taxi over the big rocks, sticks, mud holes, and whatever else in on the beginning of a spray strip or back country strip. Over the last fifty years I have landed in thousands of farmers fields. Some nice like the ones I see in your pictures. Some not.

contactflying wrote:If you are landing on a long runway and need to go to the other end and don't want to get into the bad habit of landing long, consider the hover taxi rather than the fast taxi with the tail up.

It is good practice to land on the numbers every time. Using the apparent brisk walk rate of closure (power/pitch) approach with full flaps (if we have them,) we can arrive at the numbers at or below (downwind with lots of power) stall speed. We have ground speed under control and are not going to inadvertently smack anything. Just before touchdown, we add enough power to prevent touchdown. We dynamically and proactively use fore/aft stick movement and dynamically use power (the throttle is a control) to stay between six inches and three feet above the runway. Any turning we need to do will be rudder only, with cross controlled aileron to keep the wing level. Ground effect and a little power more than make up for the lift lost by skidding. A short distance before the desired taxiway or ramp area, we close the throttle to touch down and begin normal taxi.

This technique is easier on the tires, brakes, and prop. It works as well on rough ground as a concrete runway.

Really? To what point? If this is tower controlled, and I'm going to the other end of a long runway, I'm going to ask for a short approach, and tell tower that I'm making a long landing. Then, I'll simply fly my approach to a spot near where I plan to exit the runway. Land, and clear the runway...done.

This "Hover taxiing" you describe takes FAR longer over the runway, and what's the point? A gust of wind, traffic behind you, all sorts of good reasons not to be in slow flight, tying up the runway, while you pirouette down the runway at low level. Great training exercise, but pretty useless tool in the rest of the world.

If it's tower controlled, once the tower clears you to land, the runway is YOURS. Fly near to the point you intend to exit the runway and land. It's a nice idea to INFORM the tower that you're going to make a long landing, but that's not something you have to request. Once cleared, the runway is yours. I prefer (and ATC generally appreciates this) not to tie up the runway any longer than necessary.

No tower? The AIM provides guidance on what your traffic pattern should look like, but it does not provide any guidance that suggests even vaguely that you should always land on or even close to the numbers. Land wherever will be the most efficient for you, then clear the runway.

Note, however, at uncontrolled airports, that you are expected to make your base leg beyond the end of the runway, whereas at a tower controlled airport, I routinely request a short approach, which implies I MAY turn base inside the numbers.

Off airport, same logic applies: land wherever makes the most sense for your operation.

Only time you're likely to break something is when in contact with the ground....why extend that? And, to slow fly down a runway at low level makes absolutely NO sense, other than for training purposes.

MTV

Hover, schmover.... flingwing.com is the page you're looking for... Low approach or landing long, but in the end why?

Like contact and bart, I make a living flying reasonably low for long periods, but like MTV I really can't find any merit to flying low and slow for the length of a strip just to avoid contact... why subject my engine, the tower or others to all that Tom foolery?

Again like Mike, I never ask anyone to land long, but I *may* advise a tower, specially if they're fairly busy and may not be inclined to realize my intentions.... otherwise who gives a rip. In most towers, you can't hardly tell where the wheels went down anyways...

Numbers?... hmm not for this kid... If I am not shooting an approach down to minimums I am not likely to care where or why the numbers are... same thing with the centerline... no wind? ya sure landing on the stripe looks neato... big Xwind? I'll use what it takes , thank you very much, you're welcome to cut your available width in half and land on the centerline

And the whole tail up taxi thing???? that jazz just cracks me up I most certainly can taxi from here to kalamazoo on two wheels... but again why in the world would I want to subject my engine, plane and prop to that, don't get me wrong, when my tailwheel is on the wrong side of a ditch, boulder, log etc, ya, sure, I'll pick it up with power and move it around to the other side, but drive down a perfectly good paved taxiway were nosing it over on all three would be virtually impossible?.... Everytime I see someone trying to impress us taxiing by on the mains I can't help but think of a young boy who just had his first accidental erection and now discovers he has a penis.... that's some funny stuff....

Rob wrote:
And the whole tail up taxi thing???? that jazz just cracks me up I most certainly can taxi from here to kalamazoo on two wheels... but again why in the world would I want to subject my engine, plane and prop to that, don't get me wrong, when my tailwheel is on the wrong side of a ditch, boulder, log etc, ya, sure, I'll pick it up with power and move it around to the other side, but drive down a perfectly good paved taxiway were nosing it over on all three would be virtually impossible?.... Everytime I see someone trying to impress us taxiing by on the mains I can't help but think of a young boy who just had his first accidental erection and now discovers he has a penis.... that's some funny stuff....

Now that is funny shit!!!

AKT

Hell ya rob! Crackin me up man!