Split from "Aborting from a short field" topic -Z
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EZFlap wrote:

Kenny wrote:If the runway is not long enough to do that I have no business being there

You may be missing out on a lot of what Idaho back country flying is famous for (and what makes us big city folk jealous as hell)

Kenny wrote:Nose dragger is not the same as knuckle dragger

LOL ! I'm proud as hell to be a Neanderthal tailwheel knuckle-dragger (even though my current airplane has the tailwheel mounted on the wrong end)... Keeps my feet from becoming atrophied on landing

Not hardly EZ. I've several hundred hours back there over 30 years.

LOL. I love flying my nose dragger, but have found the reception at "some" BC events (185 Club at JC, por ehemplo) to be less than friendly. So, my signature is directed more toward those that look down their noses at us unfortunate "training wheeled" airplane drivers

Oh ye poor unwashed masses...

If the old gray back country types can tolerate metal skins as well as fabric, young handsome pilots (like myself) as well as old toothless haggard curmudgeons, yokes as well as sticks, flat engines as well as round... they can tolerate a nosewheel.

If anyone gives you TOO much guff, remind them that an equivalent nosewheel 182 can take off faster than a 180 because it can rotate to a higher AOA on the ground roll. The famous Valdez STOL competition videos show this repeatedly.

There are some genuinely valid reasons that the tailwheels are preferred in really rough country, but those are structural considerations and the availability of Alaska Bushwheels for taildraggers to get the prop higher off the ground and roll over boulders. Nosewheels weigh a little more of course but on a high-powered airplane it is a small issue.

Kenny wrote: but have found the reception at "some" BC events (185 Club at JC, por ehemplo) to be less than friendly.

I can definitely feel your pain. The "reception" that I got in several of these internet discussion groups in the beginning has been horrible too, because I had the nerve to invent something that is applicable to many of these airplanes and want to show it off. There's a lot of intolerance and negativity that comes out of people when they can hide behind a computer keyboard.

But take heart, a friend of mine with a 182 just beat the heck out of a 180 in an unofficial short field takeoff competition somewhere in Idaho, and the 180 guy wound up buying breakfast for everyone when he lost! Also, a member on this forum (58Skylane) has larger 8.00 tires fitted to his gorgeous 182 and he can go almost anywhere the monster truck taildraggers can.

10-4 on being a little more conservative...the tail-dragger crowd can indeed be a little snobby...i'm just waiting for one of those "real" pilots to stuff 1500 lb in a 180/185/super-cub, etc and take off of anything...when they can run with a 206T, let me know...'seems that the freight guys don't run much freight or people in t-draggers...!

t-draggers are cool, fun a/c...i'm not sure why the snobbiness has to be there...!

Most taildragger pilots I know are good guys, but IMHO the 180/185 Club guys can be kinda snooty- at least when they're in a bunch. Sorry if that rubs anybody wrong, but I've experienced it firsthand and heard the same thing from others too, so it ain't just me.

Eric

hotrod150 wrote:Most taildragger pilots I know are good guys, but IMHO the 180/185 Club guys can be kinda snooty- at least when they're in a bunch. Sorry if that rubs anybody wrong, but I've experienced it firsthand and heard the same thing from others too, so it ain't just me.

Eric

Hey Jomac and Eric,
Your not rubbing me wrong at all! Just throwing my 2 cents in.

But, most (well, all) taildragger pilots I know out of the Caldwell area are great guys. The Maule guys I meet down in Austin, NV were cool. There is one Maule guy that keeps bragging about is little flying vacation he's on right now (kinda getting under my skin!) (Just kidding!! I'm just a little jelious he's having all the fun right now). But I was at JC this last summer when the 180/185 club was there and didn't think of any of them pilots to be too snooty (I'm not all that social in person myself), but did spark up a nice (but short) conversation with a couple of pilots from Texas that had a very nice 185 that had a long list of nice mods. Gary (shortfielder) has a 180 or 185, and he's a really cool dude. I meet him at JC this last summer and he flew over to Austin, NV also. Then there's this guy from the Portland area that flys a C170 that seams pretty cool .

But taildragger or tricycle, there diffenitely is a fair share of snooty (mostly big ego) pilots out there and I really don't care what others (snooty or not) may think of me and my friends. I'm just trying to have as much fun with flying in the backcountry as I possible can, while I can!

C180/185 great machine if you need one, as described by the masses. It is funny though how some of those guys get who own them. Just remember Cessna designed her as a utility aircraft. With that in mind, just think about it this way:

All those snobby, testosterone fueled blow - hards that make all the noise about their better - than - thou flying machine are driving around in a glorified goat hauler.

gb

Try and put this load in a C185

So what did all that stuff go in? And the people?

I have found that every one of us thinks our plane is the absolute best. Of course it is, for that person. Each plane has a special purpose, and probably does it better than any other plane. Doesn't mean that other planes are useless, they just have a different purpose. It's too bad some people can't see that all planes are fun to fly!

ASW.

ASW wrote:So what did all that stuff go in? And the people?

It's too bad some people can't see that all planes are fun to fly!

ASW.

Yeah, that's my idea too. I'm proud of my Big Bird but I love every airplane I see. I don't get the holier than tho attitude that I sometimes run across. I know and fly with a bunch of TD pilots and they are fun and equally proud of their ships.

ASW wrote:So what did all that stuff go in? And the people?

In this?

Looks like the main gear on the older Cessnas are about the same thickness on both the Taildraggers and Tricycles. When your landing a nosewheel plane you can hold the front wheel off till you are at a pretty slow speed. I really don't see a problem here but what do I know? Are tailwheels really that much better? How about some stories about nosegear being torn from the planes and such from you more experienced guys.

I might take heat for this, but I've always had the opinion that the functional side of taildraggers is a bit over-rated. Yeah, they look far better on the ground than nosewheel airplanes do (the two airplanes I own - an RV-4 and a C-170A , are both taildraggers). Yeah, there's a bit more to keep you busy (meaning that it can both be more fun, and that there's a bit more to screw up.) And yep, since they've put the endorsement requirement in the FAR, there's even a bit of mystique about it.

But are there real practical advantages of a taildragger over a nose gear? For the flying I do, the only advantage I've seen is that I'm less likely to come back from ops in the tall grass with grass-stains on the prop. Given the prop strike AD (although you've gotta have an RPM drop AND grass stains), maybe that matters - especially if it's someone else's airplane. I've never been into a place in a tailwheel airplane that I couldn't operate a nose gear airplane (like a good 205 or 206) from. Doubt I ever will.

But look, while there's a wee bit of money to be made at it, we mostly all do this for fun. So the practical comparison ain't worth much. Park my 170 next to an early 172, or my RV-4 next to a nose-geared RV-6 - and there's no comparison - at least in MY mind. They're prettier, they're more fun (or at least require more attention) -- That's enough for me. Why let practical matters get in the way?

--Tony

Jaerl wrote:Looks like the main gear on the older Cessnas are about the same thickness on both the Taildraggers and Tricycles. When your landing a nosewheel plane you can hold the front wheel off till you are at a pretty slow speed. I really don't see a problem here but what do I know? Are tailwheels really that much better? How about some stories about nosegear being torn from the planes and such from you more experienced guys.

Speaking of which. This just happened this month. From N.T.S.B. (ntsb.gov).


NTSB Identification: WPR09LA445
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, September 11, 2009 in Chemehuevi Valley, CA
Aircraft: CESSNA 182K, registration: N2819R
Injuries: 3 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On September 11, 2009, about 1220 Pacific daylight time, a Cessna 182K, N2819R, landed hard and porpoised down the runway before coming to rest inverted at the Havasu Palms dirt airstrip, Chemehuevi, California. The pilot/owner operated the airplane under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91, as a personal flight. The pilot and two passengers were not injured. The airplane sustained structural damage to the tail section. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight that departed an unknown location, with a planned destination of Havasu Palms. No flight plan had been filed.

According to the pilot, he made the approach to landing over the river. The airspeed was 60 knots, and as he reduced the power to flare, the airplane was "caught in a downdraft." The airplane landed hard, bounced back up into the air in an "erratically unusual attitude," bounced a second time, and as the airplane came back down a third time, the nose landing gear sheared off. The pilot reported that the airplane slid off the runway and flipped over.

The pilot reported that the winds were moderate, with the windsock pointing down the runway. The pilot stated that he landed with a slight tailwind.

Yea, I can see if you slam the nosewheel into the asphalt three times on one landing you might have a problem but what I am talking about is backcountry, non screw up landings. The kind we all want to do.

I'll fly 'em both 'cause it's still flying.
Some of my favorite taildraggers are ; C180, Thrush, Ag-Cat, C195 (450), 180 Cub, Pilatus Porter, Single Otter, DC-3, Air Tractor 802.
Some of my favorite nosedraggers are; Cessna 206, Cessna 210, C-185 amphibian, Caravan, Shorts Skyvan and Twin Otter.
Just don't do anything you souldn't with either and enjoy whatever plane.
I am sorry to hear of some of the past experiences with the 180/185 people for some. I went to my first 180/185 club fly-in this year and found the people I interfaced with to be really nice. I didn't tell 'em what plane I had right off the bat and they still talked to me. Better yet, I'm a club member and I'll talk to you.
Happy Flying.

I have a Husky A1-B and a Mooney 201, so fly with the tailwheel where it belongs as well as up front. Like others, I think planes look prettier on the ramp with their noses up.

Taildraggers have several advantages I haven't seen mentioned. They are more manueverable while taxiing, being able to turn almost in their own length (at worst they can pivot on one main wheel). You'll usually see a taildragger do a full circle, checking for traffic, before taking the runway - - something nosewheel aircraft usually don't, or rather can't, do.

In the rough, on many taildraggers, the tail can be lifted using elevator and a moderate amount of power while braking with the mains, then one or both brakes can be released or moderated and rudder used to turn the plane in a situation where obstacles would not allow the tailewheel (or a nose wheel for that matter) to turn - - note this is usually done on rougher terrain than the OP and other posts may have been considering.

You can "waterski" with a taildragger, though again, most probably wouldn't want to do this. Still, it allows landing on shorter gravel bars than would otherwise be possible, beginning the landing "rollout" on the water.

When landing in crop fields or other area where a divot or obstruction may be concealed, a taildragger might land with no damage under conditions that may see a nosewheel done in.

All else being equal, a tailwheel has less drag than a nosewheel.

And finally, taildraggers are more fun - - okay, I guess that's open to debate, but at least *I* think they're more fun.

Jaerl
I think if you can call it an airport, you can probably land a nosewheel aircraft on it!
It's when you leave the airport and start on the gravel bars, beaches, ridge tops and in the snow is where the tailwheel works best. You can tear the tailwheel off almost as easy as the nose wheel, it's just easier to get home!!
If you land in the brush about 3-5' tall to cut a strip out so you can get your prize moose or bear out or bring a hunter in, then you really want to do that with a tailwheel airplane. If you land on a glacier and sink to your belly or to the wings, you really want a tailwheel aircraft. If you bounding up a ridge at 20 degree's or so and there are basketball size rocks you're trying to miss to get to that goat, you want a tailwheel aircraft. And if you're headed back down that ridge to take of you still want that tailwheel aircraft.
I had the 31" wheels on my M6 and it worked real well for that application, when I brought it Outside, all it did was draw a crowd and a few questions. Looked good, but had no real application for me so now someone else has it.
They all are fun to fly, and the one your in is the best one ya got at the moment.
GT

bumper wrote:I have a Husky A1-B and a Mooney 201, so fly with the tailwheel where it belongs as well as up front. Like others, I think planes look prettier on the ramp with their noses up.

Taildraggers have several advantages I haven't seen mentioned. They are more manueverable while taxiing, being able to turn almost in their own length (at worst they can pivot on one main wheel). You'll usually see a taildragger do a full circle, checking for traffic, before taking the runway - - something nosewheel aircraft usually don't, or rather can't, do.

In the rough, on many taildraggers, the tail can be lifted using elevator and a moderate amount of power while braking with the mains, then one or both brakes can be released or moderated and rudder used to turn the plane in a situation where obstacles would not allow the tailewheel (or a nose wheel for that matter) to turn - - note this is usually done on rougher terrain than the OP and other posts may have been considering.

You can "waterski" with a taildragger, though again, most probably wouldn't want to do this. Still, it allows landing on shorter gravel bars than would otherwise be possible, beginning the landing "rollout" on the water.

When landing in crop fields or other area where a divot or obstruction may be concealed, a taildragger might land with no damage under conditions that may see a nosewheel done in.

All else being equal, a tailwheel has less drag than a nosewheel.

And finally, taildraggers are more fun - - okay, I guess that's open to debate, but at least *I* think they're more fun.

Great thread!

I know I keep going back and forth on this all the time trying to decide what to get for my next airplane.

Some Pros to a nose wheel:
Easier to land and operate on the ground (with exceptions mentioned by others).
Insurance is cheaper.
Easier to find instructors
Cheaper to acquire (in general).
Doesn't take as much practice to keep current and still be able to pull off a half-assed landing (or sometimes a full assed landing) without bending the airplane.
And other pros mentioned above.

Cons (or pros for tailwheel)
Easier to put larger tires on and less drag/speed loss for a TW than having a big donut on the nosewheel.
Really shines for skiing, particularly if wheel penetration skis are needed (I don't even think they're available for nose draggers). Okay, wrong on that account... thanks DonC
Can't do a full turnaround for traffic checks easily (I always wondered what the heck those taildraggers were doing).
Might not be as much fun as a TW.

For me, cost and proficiency keep pulling me back towards the training wheel.

Taildraggers, Nose draggers and skids. Fly them all, love them all. Currently, my Husky has moved to the top. As they tell the boss in the the Blue Angels after ever flight "Just happy to be here"