soaringhiggy wrote:I agree this is a great thread.

JP256 makes me think a bit. I have flow conventional gear airplanes, the last one was in the '80's and I finished my training an a C140 and a citabria 7ECA.

My question is at what point do you transition into a side slip to land?

I go to cross control very shortly after establishing base, I fly close circuits all the time and my normal approach and landing I go to idle at the end of downwind and if needed correct with power along the path.

I find the most established final that way as there is no re-configuring the airplane from crab to side slip at short final, it is small corrections from the time the plane turns from final.

What do others do?

I tend to do the same as you. Turn final and setup wing low. This gives a fairly stable and setup approach with no big sudden movements like trying to kick out of a crab at just the right time.

I have not used the crab method in 24 years of flying. I was taught to use whatever aileron is required to maintain runway centerline and rudder to point the nose in the direction of travel. I do it from the moment I am established on final.

Using this method you get a very good feel for change in wind speed and direction as you descend to the numbers. It sets you up wing low if that is appropriate, and it may result in a one wheel touchdown if that is called for.

The only time I can see using a crab is if there are dangly bits like propellers or engine nacelles out there on the wing that preclude landing wing low.

Barnstormer wrote:....Don't do stuff because you've heard you should. Do whatever is necessary to fly the plane. And do it all the way to the hangar.....

This is my main takeaway from this good post.

I always used and taught side slip all the way down final to touchdown on the upwind wheel. Not until well into confusing people on this forum about the apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach, however, did I realize that my standard quarter mile final might not be normal.

I was in back on a Delta Express Beech Turboprop in a very strong crosswind at Boston. On short final he changed from crab to side slip, so I asked. He said he always does that.

For the comfort of my passengers (my wife's not big on flying), I tend to crab for most of final. As I cross the threshold, I smoothly transition to a wing-down top-rudder and land upwind main first, then downwind main, then I let the tail down gently. Depending on the severity of the crosswind, there might be a very noticeable pause between the two mains touching down. No big deal, just keep flying the airplane - keep it straight down the runway and keep slowing it down until that other main is ready to come down.

Unless it's gusting, this is all done at my normal landing speed. If the crosswinds are really bad (my home field only has 18/36), then I'll use the same technique plus I'll angle across the runway to reduce my crosswind component.

I've tried the crab and kick, but without great timing I get a slight lurch as the mains grab the asphalt and my wife's not a fan of that.

My technique is all about smooth, slow transitions, and that makes my wife happy. I figure if she's comfortable with it then I can use it on anyone. But this is in a Pacer, so it may not be the best technique for every pilot or every airplane.

JP256 wrote:So that pilot who flies downwind at 90, base at 80, and final at 70 (very commonly heard numbers amongst C172 pilots) has a whole lot of energy to dissipate in the final 10 feet above the runway...

Flying that same airplane in the pattern, using a much tighter pattern than most current flight schools teach (so you're not having to drag it in on a long final approach leg, well behind the power curve), AND using the FAA-recommended speeds for base and final approaches would result in a LOT less energy to be dissipated. But logic dictates that you also have less margin for error... So I suspect that the flight schools – out of self-preservation, and making allowances for rookie pilots – teach faster and faster speeds. If you were taught the 90/80/70 speeds, and then encounter gusty winds, and add 1/2 the gust spread to those speeds, you could easily arrive in ground effect at nearly twice the stall speed... That's a lot of energy to dissipate in that last 10 feet!

Actually, what happens at schools is we have the lowest time commercial pilots in the industry generally occupying the flight instructor's seat in those planes. Those kids are still kinda scared of the whole notion of flying in the first place, and now they don't even get to fly.....they're watching some other kid try to kill them in an airplane.

So, those CFIs read the checklist or POH and then add five knots to all speeds for Mom. And, some of the slightly more paranoid CFIs add another five knots for Grandma.

Now, the brand new solo student knows that his/her flight instructor added five/ten knots for Mom/Grandma, so he/she adds ANOTHER five knots for his/her Mom.

Etc. Trust me, that's the way it works. And, as a consequence, as noted earlier in this thread by several folks, most pilots fly too fast on final.

We had this at a school I was affiliated with. Big come to Jesus meeting of all check airmen and Chief instructors. It seems that they were having 172s flown by solo students running off the end of 4000 plus foot runways, and regularly removing nose gears from same.

I pointed out to management that their checklists were really bad, as in stupid fast on approach speeds, as you noted. The solution was to reduce the approach speeds on the checklists and to start holding students (and CFIs) TO those approach speeds on checkrides, as in nothing OVER those speeds.

But, I totally agree, and have said forever it seems that far too many pilots fly the approaches too fast.

MTV

CamTom12 wrote:For the comfort of my passengers (my wife's not big on flying), I tend to crab for most of final. As I cross the threshold, I smoothly transition to a wing-down top-rudder and land upwind main first, then downwind main, then I let the tail down gently. Depending on the severity of the crosswind, there might be a very noticeable pause between the two mains touching down. No big deal, just keep flying the airplane - keep it straight down the runway and keep slowing it down until that other main is ready to come down.

Unless it's gusting, this is all done at my normal landing speed. If the crosswinds are really bad (my home field only has 18/36), then I'll use the same technique plus I'll angle across the runway to reduce my crosswind component.

I've tried the crab and kick, but without great timing I get a slight lurch as the mains grab the asphalt and my wife's not a fan of that.

My technique is all about smooth, slow transitions, and that makes my wife happy. I figure if she's comfortable with it then I can use it on anyone. But this is in a Pacer, so it may not be the best technique for every pilot or every airplane.

This, but I’ll add that if I’m in any doubt as to how much side slip will be needed, and whether I’ll have enough rudder, I’ll start the sideslip a bit early to feel it out. Otherwise, I transition smoothly from crab to a slip about 30’ above touchdown.

Cam Tom, I always found the Pacer to be too light to crab. You would run out of rudder pretty quick with any velocity crosswind. To get a better idea of crabbing and kicking straight try using a grass runway or the grass alongside the tar, grass is a lot more forgiving to touchdown not quite straight. Grass is a better runway, doesn't skid when the wheels spin up.
I admit I use crab and kick with any aircraft of any size, just feels better in a Pacer. The pax will get used to it soon enough.

Like JamieG said in an earlier post. Watch out.

I have 2500+ taildragger hours and several hundred in my 180. Had just spent a great week with my wife in the backcountry and we were going to spend a night in civilization before heading home early the next morning.

Proficiency was high before landing in Boise this summer. Likely made a difference.

It was hot, not Texas hot, but Idaho density altitude hot. On final, little wind, kind of variable like which way do I go, a helicopter took off from the ramp on the left side of the runway while half way down, density altitude so had some ground speed going on. Good wheel landing, rolling out, tail down and yoke back, aileron neutral, maybe 40 mph ground speed. All of a sudden the plane just lifts up. Took a second to realize what was going on; no veering, just lifted up left wing first, tailwheel still down. With the 8.50’s there is already not a lot of runway visibility over the nose, now no runway in sight straight ahead; a very unusual sight picture. Aileron rudder, now elevator, some brake, some rudder jabbing, tires chirping, moving the rudder aileron elevator brakes, all at the same time, just reacting to and fighting the bucking bronco. After some screeching and cussing it was over. Holy Crap. WTH just happened.

On the ramp talked to a witness, a pilot, my waiting ride. He watched the landing and turned away while rolling out thinking “damb fine landing”. Then the tire chirping started and he watched me going for the 8 second bull ride. He felt no wind or gusts, nothing from the helicopter. There are no buildings or terrain to explain it. Said that another pilot had ground looped a week earlier with similar conditions.

You hear tales like this. Did not have as much “experience” as I thought. Definitely have some more now. You can listen to and read all the stories. There is nothing like living it.

GM

The original post by Fiddler had to do with full aileron into the crosswind, but you didn't have much and meybe variable. The aileron is very ineffective at that speed, but the rudder gets prop blast and the tailwheel down is effective. At that airspeed, dynamic proactive rudder and tailwheel nibble is not enough to assert authority. You will just be taking the slack out of the spring. Quite a distance of dynamic proactive rudder and tailwheel movement is necessary. We have no reason to think we will need such authority until we need such authority.

As we get more professional, we nibble as Jim Parker has pointed out. When we suspect the bad guys are out there, our feet get more active. Some of us are just twitchy. Or we get a trike. Some of us are still twitchy in a trike. It doesn't look professional but it keeps the nose straight.