Every year we see an article in AOPA called, "The Myth of the Downwind Turn." Barry Schiff correctly explains how there is no difference in downwind or upwind turns as we are drifting with the air mass. He is thinking 40,000 feet and he is thinking airspeed.

Ground speed is the speed at which we are flying toward terrain and obstructions. Wind management is how we maneuver to take ground speed advantage of headwinds on final, crosswinds on base to final, and headwinds when maneuvering around obstacles or engaging targets.

S turns across a road and turns about a point are fine ground reference maneuvers. Maneuvering to go down the road road, rather than across, is a much more practical one. I teach students to make that maneuver in an upwind rather than a downwind turn. At 200' AGL.

From 200' AGL down to the surface, the downwind turn is real and mean.

Contact,

You were cultivating a real nice following until this thread... Good luck now, you're gonna need it

As far as I'm concerned the average GA pilot is not going to notice a difference between a downwind or upwind turn unless he is flying an incredibly heavy helicopter load, or a twice as incredibly heavy fixed wing load... And before any of the AK brethren get up in arms about big loads, I am not talking about gross + 10%-20%.... Or a typical 206/7 dragging its tail load, I am talking about a load as in a CAM 8.10-3(e) load that a typical ag guy is going to be hauling. The kind that won't let you leave ground effect until long after the strip is gone..

But in that case, he wouldn't have been an average GA pilot ...

And yes I am aware that many of you that fly 135 may have accidentally flown this way , cause it darn sure didn't legally happen


Haul a weeks worth of those loads, and I don't care what physics you prescribe to, you will have a new respect for the downwind turn

The kind of wing loading I'm talking about here is so foreign to the average GA pilot, that it isn't realistic to expect them to understand...

Take care, Rob

I luuuuuuuuuvvvv ground effect.


Agreed on the Barry schiff 40,000 feet example. Much, much different near the ground with your eyes telling you lies.

Rob wrote: And yes I am aware that many of you that fly 135 may have accidentally flown this way , cause it darn sure didn't legally happen

Yeah, it was a horrible accident!!!!

And ground effect is our good friend!!!!

Gump

Hey Bart, do you guys do much night work ?

Rob wrote:Hey Bart, do you guys do much night work ?

Thankfully, no!! The ferry to the first job is as close as we get

Rob,
You confused me with the first post. We're talking about ground speed, how fast we are closing with targets, right? I love ground effect but was not talking about that here. How did I confuse you? I write like I speak: weak and garbled.

In back and forth, we use the crosswind (which is a headwind in most of the turn) to help us slow down to make the turn. It also drifts toward the target, the next swath run. The slower we go (ground speed) the faster we turn, right?

Hi contact,

I apologize, as I was writing that the Wx Man was telling me that I wouldn't be able to leave Denver in the am, and I really needed to get back home as the work was piling up. Consequently my thoughts were scattered at best

Your post was not weak or garbled, and I understood it quite well. The same couldn't be said of my response, but nothing new there...

I understood your exercise in ground reference and hadn't confused it with ground effect, the only reason I introduced ground effect was to quantify the amount of wing loading I think the average individual needs to see before the wheels start turning and the realize just what the wind is doing to their ship.

I just honestly believe the average backcountry boon docker flying a pimped out 180hp super cub or 300hp C180, has so much excess hp and wing that he never really clues into what the wind is doing to his rig. Don't agree? I could offer you several ag related examples, but they would be old hat to you, and unrelated to this site, so I will offer you a more recent example that directly relates to backcountry flying and this site in particular.

Remember the canyon turn video thread? Now before I go any any farther let me say Blu, this is not meant to be critical of your video, your turning, or your thread, just an observation...

Ok, so watching that video a couple things were evident.

First, Blu has obviously been influenced by an older midwestern aggie... this is easy to see because he favors a 'P' turn, as in a back to back, or back and forth, turn.... most young turbine flying guys that are lucky and fly big country, fly some form of round robin, be it race track, rverse racetrack on pivots or squeeze... but the important thing is they aren't likely to start with a downwind turn, because the have room, so they just pitch it up and roll...

Next, he probably has no idea why we turn that way... because as any aggie, or seasoned instrument pilot can tell you, a 'P' turn, or PT , burns way more real estate than a simple 'U' turn... the only reason we turn downwind first is to 'buy' room to come back to a swath that is only 50'-75' or so away from where we started. Same is true of the instrument pilot who needs a PT... He needs to come back to a given track, if simple course reversal was all that mattered he would turn tighter by just flipping a youey...

So you see, if Blu simply slowed it up, and rolled it around he would have turned significantly tighter... Now whether he should have pulled the nose up, or slowed it up first and pulled flaps, or slowed and let the nose drop, or why he added power, is all subject matter for that thread, I did not engage there, because I know what works for me, and it is not likely something I would recommend to someone who doesn't practice it on a regular basis... But what is pertinent to this thread, is the fact that he turned down wind (we hope) first and then made his course reversal into the wind... But even there we are just guessing, because he never made that clear.

Just a few posts later someone else (AKT I think) excaims how perfect it was!... first he 'turned out to the right' a little, then full power and a tight turn to the left... hog wash... right and left mean nothing here... it's downwind and upwind. If the wind was off his right shoulder the entire sequence should have been played in reverse, because the only thing that matters is that his course reversal is in to the wind... But of course I am preaching to the choir here My only point was that the average pilot is lost on this. They just turn

lastley, my question for bart was just baited...

I had hoped he was in a part of the country where they spray at night (as we do) I have never met someone who works night and shares the same views of wind effects on airplanes as the physics types would have you believing, because all those types believe that it's simply your eyes playing tricks on your mind, but on a moonless night in the country, as soon as you exit the field and the lights are off, there is no ground reference, it is for all intents and purposes IMC, yet I guarantee you that even a non experienced 40 hr. pilot in the front seat of a two holer would be able to tell which way is down wind and which way is upwind

Take care, Rob

This is all good stuff. Keep it coming.

I don't envy your night flying gig at all rob. Except when it's a100+ degrees and a 100% humidity. Then I'm thinking it's a good idea. I have a hard enough time staying awake during the days much less the nights. And I couldn't imagine the f@%+ing wind turbines at night now. Man I love those things.. But I'll agree with you on "feeling" the wind. I was always tuned in before but now I'd say I'm hypersensitive to it without thinking about. It's just always in your mind. Amazing how just a few knots will one direction or the other will hold ya up or drop ya And if there's a good breeze it's amazing how much better a pilot you may appear to spectators at one end of the field vs the other sometimes. Your right. I have a buddy that fits your description that made me worry a lot. Had a tricked out high hp bird that got him out of a lot of situations. More plane than skill. Kinda like doing acro in a old citabria vs an extra 300. The extra can make anyone look good. Just move it like a video game and it does it. Still fun. But not the best skill developer. all this is why I'm not a good teacher. At all! When someone asks how you do something I don't really know. Then I get confused sometimes cause I can't think about or remember how to do it. I just feel it and do it. Weird. But I'm trying to bet better at it.

I like this. Gets all the brain cells firing. Better than boring downwind video and bad music.
Keep posting you guys !!!

Rob-Can you teach me to speak/write with such elegance, which I can't even spell w/o help. You cleared it up for me and the others as well, I hope.

Since we're on downwind/upwind turns and ag, I have a problem you might help with. We train and work, mostly, in Pawnees. But the kids all think they will fly an 802 the first year. We have Satloc on the Cub, Luscombes, Pawnees and one (Slim's) turbine Ag Cat. Even in a Pawnee, race tract is preferable, until the tactical situation becomes fluid. With the high price of corn and wheat (did you ever put fungicide on wheat?!!!!) we're operating in much higher winds than in the old days.

The computer weather said 14 kts so I went out to check the kids. Yep, they were still race tracking. That makes for a really mean downwind turn in every other turn. Do I have to use a 2X4 to get these guys to think about the wind?

Always good to hear from someone that's been there done that, thanks for the stimulating perspective guys.

Do you guys know of any graphics that illustrate what you're talking about? I *think* I get it, but it's hard to digest several paragraphs of prose and remain confident that I have the right conceptualization.

Realistically, for us normal non-ag flying GA peelots, the downwind turn boogey man is really just a myth. Our kind of flying, whether it's into little back country strips or to the local 10,000' runway, just isn't impacted by whether we're turning downwind or upwind, except perhaps when the wind's blowing across a canyon and we have to decide which way to turn--and if it's blowing that hard, maybe we ought not to be there!

Cary

Contact. To what extent are you still involved in ag work? What area y'all working in?
Where I work the wind is constant and strong. Funny how some of these threads get you thinking bout things you don't necessarily ponder. I don't usually change my pattern type(racetrack,back2back,etc) due to wind speed. I just adjust my pulls,turns,distance etc accordingly. I racetrack mostly and to the left as much as I can. I can't see where doing a different pattern due to wind would matter... I may be missing something or the point here. I to have a tough time following the dialogue at times and visualizing. I'm a very hands on guy tho and sometimes can't visualize till I do it or see it drawn out.

See "New Fly-In Restaurant in SW Missouri" post. That is where Plane Cents operates many Pawnees and a turbine Ag Cat. Starting in 2003 I taught three of the four Kingsley brothers, who farm 2,000 acres there, to spray. I worked for them a couple of seasons, and then as Chief Flight Instructor and Safety Officer. I am completely retired now, but wander out to give them hell every once and a while. Those of you who were in the military understand that, even with your friends, you have to kick ass and take names from time to time. There is also a jump school there, not my idea, a bad mix. Be careful going in there on weekends. To get to the load ramp the spray planes have to go right by the restaurant and they still load with the engine running. It's a great place, don't let me discourage you. Just watch those hillbilly farmers and crazy jumpers.

A story about Kiman Kingsley comes to mind. He bought a really nice (new paint) Luscombe for them to train ag in. I was explaining how you could put a small dot (with fingernail polish) to know where to start the the old round Dzus fastener. "Here" Kiman says, as he pulls a screwdriver from his overalls (which he always wears) pocket. He walks up and scratches an arrow where the slot of the Dzus should point.

55Wagon- The race track is fine in quite a lot of wind. The big airplanes generally stay with it. With a Pawnee or even Ag Wagon, the time saved and comfort of the race track doesn't make up for the time lost in the greater distance you need to go out to make the downwind turn safe (or even get on target.) With younger pilots, I don't want them stalling or putting a wing into a wire while trying to make a very high ground speed return to target. You don't think about it, but you are going out far enough to allow you to get the wing back level over the wire or trees. These young guys think it is just a more fun, more gs, faster turn. In spraying, life gives us plenty of thrills, we don't need to create our own.

Rob-Any time I mention the AT-802, I'm just bullshitting. You've read my posts. Do you think anyone would even let me sit in his two million dollar airplane? Billy Howell made me spray with his 302 so I would know what the kids would be getting into later. Going into the field at 160 and coming out at 130 was just not for me. Scarred the pee out of me.