Hey everyone,

I need some third party insight and, with the vast array of diverse experience on here, I thought I would throw this out to you all.

I have a student who is about to throw in the towel because he just can't figure out x-wind landings. I've about come to the end of my bag of tricks that I have used to teach them. We've done everything from the having him follow me on the controls, to setting him up on a long final with the slip established, to following fencelines out in the practice area with a stiff x-wind. He seems to follow fencelines with no problem, but for the life of him, he can't keep the nose pointed down the runway. I think it is combination of him not being able to figure out the right sight picture and him freaking out a little when he gets close to the ground. He has soloed a few times and, so long as there is no wind, he does a good job.

Anyway, I thought some of you might either have some techniques that you have used or your instructor used on you to make that come on.

Thanks,
GSP

Grassstrippilot wrote:I have a student who is about to throw in the towel because he just can't figure out x-wind landings.

I swear I'm not your student. But isn't that why they invented nose draggers? "Crosswind? Phttppt, It'll straighten out eventually."

Sorry I can't offer you any good advice.

I'm not a CFI, but here is my observation and two cents. Most guys I see, well past private, are a little scared of the ground and it is hard to get comfortable enough to feel what is going on and make the airplane do what they want.

Could your student benefit from just pedaling around at 50 feet and get to where he enjoyed being close to the ground?

I like to practice close to the ground, I think it gives a good perspective on how much real estate is need to turn around and good all around practice, plus I think it's way funner. (funner is too a word )

I have heard of instructors that will have their students just use the rudder while he uses the yoke, then when they get that figured out, they will switch, he uses the rudder and the student uses the yoke, then once they get that figured out, he has the student put it together and use them both. Hope that helps. Sure hope he doesn't throw in the towel.

A couple a things that helped me, although I think I may be repeating. When I first started my training I just didnt give the rudder pedals enough credit and got away with it becuase I was learning in a C-152. Finaly after a series of lessons with the Instructor trying to get me to do more with the rudder pedals he told me to take my hands off the yoke right after we lifted off and to "leave them off" and fly the complete pattern using only the rudder pedals to fly the pattern and the trim control for pitch. This lesson helped drive it home that those things we put our feet on are not foot rests. To add to this lesson for flying a crosswind landing I would find a airport with a long runway 5000ft or longer with a steady crosswind and practice tracking the centerline only a few feet above the pavement trying to keep the nose lined up with centerline and dipping the wing to prevent drift without actually touching down. Do it repeatedly untill he can keep the nose lined up without drifting. Then just land the dang thing. Crosswind landings for a novice are one of those things that are real hard untill you get the hang of it, and then you wonder what the big deal was. (try wind surfing. Its the same thing. )

This made crosswind landings a lot easier for me to understand: Cancel the wind with the ailerons, and keep it straight with the rudders.

ASW

Maybe 3rd time will be a charm.

No wind required!

The exercise that worked for me was when my instructor first had me do a couple of high speed taxis.
This was just to get me used to going along with the tail up.

The crux of the exercise came when he had me lift a wing, and taxi on one wheel.
Better believe ya learn what that rudder is all about, real quick.
Made me do it till I could hold it straight down the runway with the wing on a couple feet of the pavement.

This process is what the student needs to do after touchdown in a X-wind, with out the added problem of the X-wind.

Still not very good on the right tire.

Forever a Wannabe

Hope the submit works this time,
GSP did the PM get to ya?

With the airplane sitting on the ground stand behind it. Sight down the centerline of the airplane to an object about a half mile away. You might position the plane so is pointed directly at a water tank or something obvious in the distance. Now consider that sight line to be a runway center line and the plane is perfictly lined up with it. Have the student sit in the pilot's seat and have him mark that distant object as a vertical line on the wind screen with a grease pencil. Now on approach, aileron keeps the plane on the runway track and rudder keeps the sight line lined up with the centerline.
.

tell him to buy a cub and always land straight into the wind even if its straight across the runway.

I flew tailwheels for years before a guy who really isn't even an instructor but has thousands of hours of working an aircraft in the real world of Alaska aviation took me out one day and made me drive the airplane as Wannabe describes after listening to me bitch about my 180 being a handful in the wind. We never left the ground, I learned plenty and gained a great deal of confidence in that short session. Might be worth a try.

gb

Find a long runway somewhere on a day without too much wind. Have him fly an approach, but add enough power to keep it flying at about 10-20 feet over the runway.
Then, have him fly over the runway, side slipping first to the left side, then to the right side of the runway, back and forth. It's a pretty good exercise to get the coordination of aileron to counteract the "crosswind" and rudder to keep it straight.

This way, he can experiment with varying degrees of aileron and seeing the effects without also dealing with the round out and flare.

Thanks for the great input guys. I'll give some of these a try and see if we can get some positive results out of it.

Wannabe, I've not seen a PM from you. Did you send it today?

I also agree on using a long runway and flying low over the runway showing him side slips to control your direction down the runway. IF you feel comfortable with it have him try it a couple times too.

Not an instructor... but one thing that the ag schools teach is flying down the length of a road that is 90 degrees to a decent wind. All the while changing from side slip to fwd slip to maintain the centerline. It really helps tune in directional control...

Take care, Rob

GSP Yes I also attempted to PM you pretty much with the same experience
been so long since I posted that I seem to have forgot how.
Currency, Currency etc I guess.

And MASTER Zane thinks I am going to be able to learn "CODE" to do some Wiki Wiki stuff
IF, Master Z will come to McCall or JC and teach Red Ryder BB-gun CODE,
Then, I will offer him the use of my 170 to take one of Lori's Classes.
Gottabuysumgasthough. Is that you you do texting?

Zane, as you know, I do know a lot about Harry Delickers Extended Range and Long Range Tanks for the 170s.

GSP Do you happen to also instruct young kids in gliders?
Your plane looks familiar, and if so, you may have figured out a problem with me and my 170 some time back.

Chris C

My instructor had me do 1 wheel landings in calm weather to practice for crosswinds. Must have worked because I got back from my solo cross country to a 17kt 90 degree cross wind and managed to land the Citabria safely.

Also, is he short? He may be having trouble seeing down the runway as he flares. My instructor had one student that just couldn't seem to get 3 point landings down. Turns out he was just a bit short and keep trying to peek over the nose at landing.

Some people learn best by reading and thinking it through on the ground. Have him read this article:
http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleC ... sFoto.html

Good luck to him!
Phil

wannabe wrote:Zane, as you know, I do know a lot about Harry Delickers Extended Range and Long Range Tanks for the 170s.

The "buzzard" was the bird Harry used to extend his stc from 7.5 gals to 15 gals each side after he bought it from Texas Taildraggers. The buzzard is a black C172A tailwheel conversion with 30 gals extended fuel. Unfortunately the buzzard is now in Calgary. There's a photo of the buzzard in my photo gallery.

I concur with all the above comments, and will add this:

I find that MY landings tend to get squirrelly when I let my gaze focus too long on the touchdown point. Your student needs to find some point waaaaaayyyyy off in the distance, that will get him aligned with the runway. Now, it's a gunsight kinda thing, with the rear sight being the runway centerline, and the front sight being the tree, barn, etc off in the distance. At the very least, tell him to focus on the FAR end of the runway, NOT the near end.

Frequently, I'll have a student who should know better start to screw up the alignment on approach. Almost invariably, when I tell em to look waaaaaayyyyy down the runway for their reference, and use their peripheral vision for the flare and near reference, their landings improve significantly.

Try it. As an instructor, it's near impossible to tell where your student is focusing their eyes. I'll bet he's totally focused on the touchdown point.

MTV

I agree with Mike and would bet that your student isn't having problems understanding the X-wind concept and the application, the issue is the ground. I had the same complex for some time till a savvy CFI flew with me for the first time and noticed right away I wasn't looking down the runway. I started to force myself to look down the runway, and problem cured. It's almost as if the touchdown should be slightly unexpected (I use that loosely of course because if it's way unexpected well...)
Tedd

Agree with teaching him the Tennesee Waltz. Best way to train for X-wind in a taildragger, and learn use of rudder, i.e. interrelationship of the amplitude and frequency of its use. Work on one wheel, then the other. When he gets it down tight have him start switching side to side. Just stay on the ball as the CFI, its a great way to teach technique and finesse, but also a great way for the student to ball up the plane if you don't step in quick enough.

ceh