karma is a bitch

Squash wrote:Oh, wanted to mention that you may want to throw some duckbill anchors in your stash if you should ever end up in a bad windstorm. When you absolutely need help holding the plane, there is no portable system that will perform better. You just can't easily take them with you once installed. They are sort of the transition tiedowns between permanent and portable.

Duckbills, duckbills, duckbills! And quality climbing rope.

Something from the EEA Airventure about tying down aircraft:



http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-fly-in-flying-to-oshkosh/ground-operations/tying-down-aircraft

I've no idea where they are getting their technique from, but this is the guidance I have been following....

I see the "latest" guidance from the FAA says the same thing (1983!):
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2020-35C/$FILE/Pages1-10.pdf

Like I said, NEVER use chains no matter how tight or loose! Damage can still occur. If a person does not fly with their own tie down ropes and a means to attach them to what ever tie down anchor is available is a person that is unprepared.

Come on guys, just how hard is it to take your own ropes with you?

Watching a wing fail on a Super Cub on floats due to being tied down with chains, then trying to rescue the pilot under cold water is a sight and experience I hope neither of you or you're family members should ever have to experience. I hate to sound like a preacher or ball buster but this is serious stuff that can kill you or your family!

If you don't believe me, MTV can back me up on this.

G44




"If you use chains somewhere, snug them very tight, so that there's no slack. It's the slack which causes damage, not the chains themselves. We used chains in Laramie, and as long as they were tight, no problems. One day a fellow flew in, in a really nice 170, on a rare calm day. He did a really sloppy job of chaining it down. When he came into the FBO, I suggested he might want to snug up the chains some because the wind was likely to pick up, but he swore at me and essentially told me to mind my own business in pretty vile language (this being a "family site" populated by innocent folk, I won't quote him ). If he'd treated me better, I would have retied his airplane myself, but I left it alone. Well, the wind did come up. When I left the FBO that afternoon, the 170 was rocking in the wind, with the chains banging. The next morning I was taking a charter, so I was out there early. The 170 was still tied down, but with a bent left wing and strut."

Cary

Sorry about your experience g44. That had to have been something.

I grew up where the spring winds howl. Gusts to 70 are not unheard of. Every airplane chained. I suspect that to be the case throughout in the West. I never saw a rope at an airport until I moved to Alaska. And for the record, by no means does Alaska have a patent on wind or any other sort of foul weather, contrary to the talk of many who live or have lived here.

Now I don't argue that chains could cause some damage. But honestly, what are we to do? Losing sleep thinking about how many times our bird has been chained down before we owned it isn't something I am going to do. Way too many other things to worry about. Heck, the way some of you guys are going at it here, every airplane that has ever been chained and the wind has rocked it is now junk. I don't buy it.

So, get some ropes. Bring them with you. Use your knot. And if you can't tie a knot, tie a lot!

GB,

I hear ya!

Airplanes have been tied down in the past with chains, nothing we can do about it. What we can do is from this point going forward is not use chains. Also, you are correct, the wind doesn't only blow in Alaska, it blows pretty much everywhere at some point in time.

G44

What's the group opinion of the heavy steel cables laid on the ground that a whole row of aircraft can tie to? In my experience they have a lot of these in the prairie provinces of Canada. Most that I've seen are only anchored to the earth at very wide intervals, like every 50 or 100 yards, or more.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when you pull any tension at all on the airplane tiedown ropes, the cable tends to lift up away from the ground and contact the tires, gear legs, brake lines, etc.
Seems like a clever idea, but would work better if the cable was staked to the earth every fifteen feet or so.
-DP

denalipilot wrote:What's the group opinion of the heavy steel cables laid on the ground that a whole row of aircraft can tie to? In my experience they have a lot of these in the prairie provinces of Canada. Most that I've seen are only anchored to the earth at very wide intervals, like every 50 or 100 yards, or more.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when you pull any tension at all on the airplane tiedown ropes, the cable tends to lift up away from the ground and contact the tires, gear legs, brake lines, etc.
Seems like a clever idea, but would work better if the cable was staked to the earth every fifteen feet or so.
-DP

DP, being from the Canadian prairies I know the cable you speak of. For the most part they work very good. For the most part. A buddies nice 172 was rebuilt by insurance after some very strong winds came through and reeked so havoc on a whole string of planes. I agree that it would be much better if the cable was anchored every 15' or so.

Birchwood had those 15? Yrs ago till one busted in wind storm and 10 airplanes got wadded up in the fence.

Worst option IMO.

denalipilot wrote:What's the group opinion of the heavy steel cables laid on the ground that a whole row of aircraft can tie to? In my experience they have a lot of these in the prairie provinces of Canada. Most that I've seen are only anchored to the earth at very wide intervals, like every 50 or 100 yards, or more.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when you pull any tension at all on the airplane tiedown ropes, the cable tends to lift up away from the ground and contact the tires, gear legs, brake lines, etc.
Seems like a clever idea, but would work better if the cable was staked to the earth every fifteen feet or so.
-DP

Ask Coyote Ugly about those cables and Furnace Creek in Death Valley.... Not fun.

Gump

This thread from SuperCub.org is well worth reading - real world experiences.

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?36786-windy-outside-palmer-ak

GumpAir wrote:Ask Coyote Ugly about those cables and Furnace Creek in Death Valley.... Not fun.

Gump

Yup- I recall that episode. I had a similar but not quite-so-wild night at Lesser Slave Lake. I think the only redeeming thing about those cables is probably that you can easily mow over and around them on a grass tie-down area.
-DP

Cable tiedowns were pulled out at many Alaska airports right after the Birchwood deal.

Any airport still using them is just one lawsuit away from oblivion, since they've proven that they aren't safe.

And, it doesn't take a cable breaking to ruin your day....unless you put some sort o stop on the cables, the tiedowns can slide, and soon two airplanes are one. Even if you figure out how to keep yours from sliding, the next airplane over can slide into yours...

MTV

I frequently go to places that have nothing to tie down to or with. It seems that everyplace I go I have to pound the stakes into what is essentially a pile of boulders with a tiny amount of dirt sprinkled on top, just enough to hide them. So I go for two really high tech, super expensive kinds of stakes. 5/8" rebar and 1/8" thick angle. I cut both into zombi killing 24" lengths with a 45° angle on one end and a T of rebar I weld (yes I am an amateur welder) to the top. 12' of 5/8" rebar is $7.99 at home death spot and I recycle old bed frames that have thick angle into these stakes (old bed frames used excellent high carbon steel, thrift stores will give them to you for free). I pack the stakes into a section of 4" PVC with a think wad of paper in the bottom so they don't do the zombie/vampire stake thing on me in a sudden stop. Depending on where I go, I use ratchet straps and Dacron rope. I run the stakes through a carabiner and attach a carabiner to the wing. Why Dacron rope, it doesn't stretch, get it at West Marine, its for rigging sails. If I have time, I make a prusik knot around the tail stinger on the 185 and stake it with a carabiner. I do make my own tail stop with some 1.5" PVC cut in half with some pipe insulator glued to the outside curve, hole in the middle of each and a carriage bolt and wing nut. Works, costs about .50¢, so I do not cry when it inevitably gets stolen. Oh, paint it red, streamers help, place the round side in the space between the tail cone & tail, tighten the wing nut.

The stakes have a short service life, especially around boulders, so I toss them frequently. To those of you that poo poo ratchet straps. I have tied down my Twin Otter in Cold Bay Alaska with 12 of them in 105 knot winds, its a lot bigger than what you tie down and flies slower too. I have lost one aircraft, a 185, in a wind storm, ok it was a hurricane with imbedded tornados.

I heard that chains were a good idea...

Chains are excellent, just really heavy, wouldn't want to carry them around. We always chained aircraft down on the deck of the aircraft carrier. There the ground moves, in addition to the air moving, not to mention the occasional wave of water breaking over your aircraft. Used 18 chains to secure my 205 million dollar 52,000 lb E-2C to the deck every day.

dogpilot wrote:Chains are excellent, just really heavy, wouldn't want to carry them around. We always chained aircraft down on the deck of the aircraft carrier. There the ground moves, in addition to the air moving, not to mention the occasional wave of water breaking over your aircraft. Used 18 chains to secure my 205 million dollar 52,000 lb E-2C to the deck every day.

And you flew it after that?

Yes I flew it after that, we flew very day, shitty weather or not. We always flew, eyes of the fleet, even after waves broke over it after a storm. Your not exactly your own boss there, more akin to slave. Weather was the least of our concerns anyhow, the E-2C was the hardest of the 75+ aircraft & helicopters I flew, unstable in all three axis, 5' wingtip clearance with the aircraft parked to your right on landing. I once watched an F-4 ramp strike right in front of me. I had just shut down after backing into the Hummer hole behind the island. The burning wreckage slid by me, missing my nose by inches and slammed into the A-7 next to me, breaking all 18 chains and pushing it into the next A-7 next to it. Had to do laundry that night.

dogpilot wrote:Chains are excellent, just really heavy, wouldn't want to carry them around. We always chained aircraft down on the deck of the aircraft carrier. There the ground moves, in addition to the air moving, not to mention the occasional wave of water breaking over your aircraft. Used 18 chains to secure my 205 million dollar 52,000 lb E-2C to the deck every day.

Yes, but the carriers I've Benin on used boomers to cinch those chains down TIGHT.

And, at least some of those aircraft were secured via the landing gear, not the wings.
Finally, carrier based aircraft are built hell for stout.

The problem with using chains to tie down a Cub/Cessna/Maule/etc is that we tie those airplanes down by the wings, and those tiedowns points aren't all that stout, and it's generally impossible to take up all the slack, leaving slack which can hammer structures as they are banged around in the wind.

MTV

Zzz wrote:

dogpilot wrote:Chains are excellent, just really heavy, wouldn't want to carry them around. We always chained aircraft down on the deck of the aircraft carrier. There the ground moves, in addition to the air moving, not to mention the occasional wave of water breaking over your aircraft. Used 18 chains to secure my 205 million dollar 52,000 lb E-2C to the deck every day.

And you flew it after that?

Lol. Sarcasm is lost on some...