182 STOL driver wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:I make my own back country tiedowns . Easy with a lowes or Home depoet in area. Or send me 40 bucks and I'll make them up for you. Go to Lowes or such and get 3 concrete stakes I think there about 18" long about 1-1/2" wide by 1/4 -3/8 " thick. Go to hardware section and buy some of those 3 inch carabeiers with screw together lock. Go to rope section and get some 35 ft. of 5/8" nylon rope -head for home (don't forget a 1/2 " drill bit ) ----- go out to your trusty "man cave" and drill your concrete stakes center mass 1-1/2" from blunt end (for your carabiners) I cut 2 sections of the rope 14 ft. and burn the ends with lighter and crimp with a pair of pliers . Short section is for tail tiedown . 3-5 pound sledge with tiedowns at 30 degree outboard angle for mains and tail should do fine >drive stake into groind 1/2 to 2/3 . Bang side to side to remove . Mine went all over and worked real good. I have 4 sets down at ranch that have held airplanes down during 60 knot winds. Weigh about 3-4 lbs rolled up in back of baggage compartment .

I drive these tiedowns in rocky soil like in my little picture near my "182 Stol Driver " -used them in Idaho last summer ,Austin ,Nevada flyin and out at Grand Canyon >>> may or may not be worth 40 bucks to you but they do work under extream conditions.

We tried a test of tiedown strength -these above I made will pull bumper off car before they loosen up. A forklift (6 ton) will just barely move them out of the ground with a straight pull .Ropes or chains will fail first .Come on down to AZ50 (Triangle) and give them a pull . Stakes are about 2 bucks a piece -clasp another 3 bucks a piece ,rope is $1.50 a ft. --- time to make up a set about a hour.

This all seems like a bit of over-analyzing to me. Dragging a couple of logs to the right spot always worked for me. If 35-45 knot winds were forecast for your area (You did check the weather forecast, right?) there wouldn't be any sensible reason for being there in the first place...In the worst cases, finding or cutting a log to the right height to set the tailwheel on and setting the wings at a negative angle of attack, and locking the brakes, or, (if in a nose-dragger) pointing it downwind and tying the tail to something solid can work. You'll stay up all night fretting, but your plane will probably be there in the morning.

I recently bought the flyties for the Tangri-la flyin. Worked great and I loved them. Easy in, easy out. We'll see how they work in Idaho this year but don't forsee too many problems. I used just a standard hammer and didn't have any problems, but the ground wasn't rock hard either.

Hmmmm, A Quote:

"This all seems like a bit of over-analyzing to me. Dragging a couple of logs to the right spot always worked for me. If 35-45 knot winds were forecast for your area (You did check the weather forecast, right?) there wouldn't be any sensible reason for being there in the first place...In the worst cases, finding or cutting a log to the right height to set the tailwheel on and setting the wings at a negative angle of attack, and locking the brakes, or, (if in a nose-dragger) pointing it downwind and tying the tail to something solid can work. You'll stay up all night fretting, but your plane will probably be there in the morning"

I don't think so:

1) Forecasts are horoscopes with numbers. I don't know about YOUR success with forecasts, but I've been let down a time or two. Also, there are a LOT of places, both in AK and the Lower 48 without internet or phone service. I often visit some of those places, and sometimes stay out there for several days at a time. So, where do I get that forecast?

2) Precisely WHAT do you use to drag a couple logs to the right spot??? Trust me when I say that if you or I can lift or drag a log by hand, you can bet that your airplane can also easily lift it.

3) Cutting a log to the right height to put your tailwheel on???? So, you carry a chainsaw, I'm guessing, cause it'll take a good six or eight inch diameter log AT LEAST to put a tailwheel on. Then, unless you tie that sucker down FIRMLY to the ground somehow to stabilize, the movement of the airplane in the wind will push the tailwheel off the log, and voila--you now have a badly damaged horizontal stabilizer.

4) I would not point an airplane downwind and tie the tail to something either. That is a GREAT way to destroy flaps, ailerons, and/or wings. I kept a Super Cub from self destructing this way once, till someone was kind enough to call the owner and tell him to get his butt to the airport and tend his airplane. If the wind is so light that you can safely secure it facing downwind, it's probably not going to do any damage facing it into the wind and chocking the tires.

MTV

Mike,

I had a feeling this thread would draw BS from the peanut gallery... I think it's interesting that the first commentator, has words like 'chief pilot' and 'interior AK' in his profile'... I suppose if airport to airport ventures in a cherokee six are the extent of your flying, you will get by just fine never even thinking about a tie down.

I tend to camp, hunt, fish and screw off, out of my airplane a fair amount, and it generally extends for several days. I have been Wx'd out more than once, and have been happy to know I have good tie downs. I will add that I have been Wx'd out at 'real deal' airports, Mckenzie comes to mind, when they happened to have more planes on the ground (due to Wx) than tie downs...I don't necessarily take every one I own on each flight, in fact the majority of the time around home, I have none in the plane. But having a variety lets me pick and choose as I please. ie: don't take duckbills to a place on the beach, unless you can get off the sand...

On the subject of duckbills, I take them on every long venture, ie: a couple week trip north. I have had to leave my a/c, as well as watched friends leave theirs, behind at various times, ie: your beloved Continental swallows a valve, or your buddy hits a badger hole and dorks his prop. As good as most tie downs are, I hate leaving an airplane unattended in the sticks with anything less than duckbills... I take them when I venture out in the Thrush, ever try to find a place to park an airplane with 60' high lift wings in a small town muni? If I'm traveling I have no buisness stopping, but if I did stop, it means the Wx's giving me shit... pretty good time to tie down the bosses $300k investment, no?

In the end, It really doesn't take much brain power to 'analyze' a tie down, so I'd rather have and not need, than need and not have And the best part of all this? Having a tie downs, doesn't make me feel any less 'free'

Well, first off, I didn't mean to offend anyone who obviously really cares about their airplanes, I don't blame anybody for taking their tie-downs seriously. But from my experience, most planes not made of sticks and bedsheets will sit firm and happy in winds up to 40mph, if you point it right. Control locks are a thing of beauty. Sure, not many people carry a chainsaw around, however dragging a log of quite considerable weight is entirely possible, and requires nothing more than sweat. Dragging a few 400 lb. logs under each wing will certainly hold it down, and setting the tail (NOT the wheel!) on anything will certainly help. Throw a coat or other soft item on a log (or logs, get creative, for pete's sake...) under the empanage to lower the angle of attack. And/Or dig some ruts to roll the main wheels into. The combination of all my suggestions are tried and true methods and have never failed. They were merely from my own experience, flying many airplanes, besides the Cherokee 6 (which will sit firm and happy in winds up to 50mph, with two 5 gallons buckets of cement tied to the wings, no matter what direction you point it). The Aeronca Champ I enjoyed many hours of flying in for 3 years went tumbling down the ramp a few winters ago in a windstorm, during gusts to 60mph. The tie-down rings in the struts broke off at the (cheesy) welds. And a final note...If the NWS puts out a wind advisory, IT WILL GET FRIGGEN WINDY. Pay attention to the surface maps, you'll see what's going to happen.

Hello Backcountry Pilots,
After reading this thread I went out and purchased three of those 24' concrete stakes from Lowes, thanks. They are real sturdy, but quite a bit heavier than the 1/2 inch threaded stock from my "Poor Man's" tie-down kit. The threaded stock set is 3 pounds for 3 stakes, and 3 concrete stakes are 7 pounds.
I guess it will just depends on where I'm flying too on which set I'll use.

James

One note about removing straight, rod type stakes out of any type of ground.

Carry a small to medium size pipe wrench (I know, more weight) and in an upward motion, twist the stakes out of the ground. The stakes will come right out. This will prevent to need to bang the stakes with a hammer which will more than likely bend the stakes in the long run.

borntoflyak: Thanks your insights. I think it's good to be practiced at improvising and adapting. I've used some of your methods like digging holes and tail raising but I wouldn't feel comfortable working only with logs and maybe a shovel. If I used logs I'd have to tie several together because I'm not strong enough to move something heavy enough to hold down a wing.

I like what MTV said. I've seen examples of BCP ingenuity and it seems the results have improved on what's commercially available. I'll probably waste some money and time working through iterations myself - based mostly on ideas from others, but I'll come up with a favorite system or two that I feel will be better than the claw or the fly ties, and along with one of those I will carry the duck bills for backup.

There are many alternatives. If the soil isn't like concrete improvised deadmans or numerous smaller anchors can be buried and load shared. This is typically done with mountaineering anchor systems using ice screws, snow pickets, or anything you might have available. Required equipment for this is a digging tool and cord/rope, cable, or chain. The criteria is redundancy, load equalization, and no line extention in the event of any individual anchor failure (to avoid resulting shock load).

I take wilderness trip planning and preparations seriously and enjoy the process. When the weather suddenly turns violent (usually in the middle of the night), I'd rather not be practicing anchor R&D - particularly when I'm solo in the wilds. My first move is to anchor my plane with the worst case scenario in mind. Although I cannot know what a place's severe weather potential is, or if the 250 year storm event will coincide with my visit, I can evaluate the site and plan for a 60 mph blow (I don't think this is being paranoid and at times I'm at remote places for days with no comm. or weather info).

Has anyone considered the more beautiful the environment is, the more dangerous it seems to be?

Vmc, Thank you for taking what came out condescending assholiosis on my post, and turning it into a reply that was worth hearing. I have never been good with words...

Born2, no offense taken, and hopefully I didn't offfend you either.. at the root of my frustration was the fact that my cub was shredded by mother nature, not too long ago...It is flying again, but I have since decided that I would do my best to not let something like that happen again...

Take care, Rob

Z, How's are the droid issues coming? based on the costal Wx I decided to fish the Green river this week instead of the Rogue. I will let you know how the droid/verizon works in those parts via my phone...

take care, Rob

If you use the duckbills, can't you just put a permanent marker on it so anyone mowing will not chew up a mower blade on it?

Some kind of UV-resistant flag, or a plastic kids "whiffle ball" baseball, etc? It would let someone else fly in and tie down safely later on too.

What about installing a secondary extraction cable on the duckbill, attached to the pointy end. By pulling on this extraction cable, the duckbill should rotate and "follow" the extraction cable back out of the hole. You can even modify an existing duckbill with this system.

Someone who has the duckbill should try this out and see if it works. It would make a great way to re-use the duckbills, stay friends with the mower operators, and save money on tiedowns.

The duckbills cam over to 90 degrees, so you'd have to attach a cable to the top end, and try to pull it out that way, but frankly, I've tried to move a few of these things and digging them out is about the only way to get em out, which of course, is the point. I suppose if you had to leave one, you might be able to cut it off as close to ground level as possible. It would take a good cable cutter, though--one more thing to carry.

I carry duck bills, and a Fly-Tie set. I use the latter for everyday tie downs, and I WOULD use the duckbills if I REALLY needed them.

MTV

If anyone else was like me and had never heard of a duckbill anchor, this explains it pretty well:

http://foresightproducts.com/duckprod.html

1SeventyZ wrote:If anyone else was like me and had never heard of a duckbill anchor, this explains it pretty well:

http://foresightproducts.com/duckprod.html

Thankyou, Zane ... I was reluctant to admit that I was possibly the only BCP user who didn't know what a duckbill is

Anyway, despite all the brilliant home-made solutions offered up by responders to my original request for feedback on The Claw and other such anchor/tiedown solutions, I concluded that because:

a) I don't own a welding machine
b) I haven't welded anything since 9th grade shop class, and
c) I'm going to a New Mexico Pilot Association fly-in next weekend with 21 other pilots/aircraft at Chinle, AZ (for a Canyon de Chelly group tour) where they have only about a half dozen tie-downs installed for transients

... I went ahead and bought The Claw (through Aircraft Spruce). I promise to provide a first person, single-use product review after I come back from that fly-in. And then thereafter I may provide an update or two if I learn something different, in different circumstances of soils, wind, etc.

Maybe after I waste my money and time on The Claw I'll end up going back to 182 STOL driver, take him up on his offer, and pay him forty bucks for one of his special home-brewed tiedowns.

More tragic tales of tiedown failure.

http://alaskadispatch.com/blogs/bush-pilot/7126-wind-storm-thrashes-local-cub-at-panc

I made my tiedowns with 20" rebar with two thick washers welded to the end of each one.
There not the lightest but they work really good everywhere. Soft soil to dry lake beds like Alvord.
As for something more permanent use a 3' long 4X4 tie a rope to it in the middle and bury it two feet down.
I didnt think this would work for high winds ,thought it would just pull the dirt out of the ditch but once its in its not coming out.
I found the instructions for this in a WWII ArmyAirforce manual. they would tie down even the big bombers down with these.

I purchased a Shed Tie down kit from Lowes. It has 4, 24 inch auger type tiedowns (one extra to leave at home). There are also 30 inch ones that are used for mobile home tiedowns available but seemed overkill. All 4 were $26. They are tested by some insurance company and are approved for a lot more force than holding down an airplane. They take a few short minutes to sink in the ground and three of them weigh about 5 pounds. I painted mine on top (loop) with flueroecent orange so I dont trip on them or taxi over them ( idon't always sink them all of the way down) when the plane is not tied. I have used these for sevral years and never had too much trouble installing or removing them in all kinds of soil. Sportys sells the individual augers for like $20/piece cause there "aviation tie downs". Lowes has the same thing. You can also find a huge variety of this kind of hardware at Tractor Supply if you are lucky enough to have one close to you. The real light weight tie downs that you see in the pilot shop catalogs are overpriced and don't hold well enough. Don't waste your $.

Is anybody using the Storm Force Advanced Aircraft Tiedown? I would love a pirep if you are.

Thanks,
Joe

http://www.stormforcetiedowns.com/Storm ... t_p_8.html

I think the only thing that could have kept those Sun n Fun planes secured on the grass in that sandy soil (reportedly) is a deadman anchor made from a buried log... probably frowned upon at most well-manicured turf fly-in facilities.

The Claw holding down a Husky was reportedly torn free of the ground. Your pound-in anchors are only as strong as the medium into which they're installed.

Zane wrote:I think the only thing that could have kept those Sun n Fun planes secured on the grass in that sandy soil (reportedly) is a deadman anchor made from a buried log... probably frowned upon at most well-manicured turf fly-in facilities.

The Claw holding down a Husky was reportedly torn free of the ground. Your pound-in anchors are only as strong as the medium into which they're installed.

When you get hit with the t-storm and/or tornado(s) that hit Lakeland this week, the tie-down probably didn't matter a whole lot one way or the other ... I've been thru a t-storm in Florida that picked up a 5-ton cruising sailboat right out of the harbor and deposited it, with other assorted anchored boats, a couple hundred feet away, stranded high and dry on the beach. In that storm, my boat's two anchors barely held while other boats dragged anchor right by mine ... and in the aftermath of that storm, a hobie-cat sailor had to be airlifted to the emergency room .. he tried hanging on to his lines and his hobie cat was airlifted up several dozens of feet into the air, then when the storm finally let his cat go, the sailor ended up impaled on his own mast! Ouch!!!

The people at Sun'nFun where the carnage happened were lucky to survive at all. Presumably all the display aircraft were insured.

By the way, I did use the Claw on my airplane a few times since I posted last on this thread. They work pretty well, except for the lightweight hammer that comes with the kit. A heavier hammer is needed if the ground is rocky or really dry and dense. No t-storms hit, so I can't vouch for their holding power.