Hi there folks,

First post here so g'day and all that!

This is a shot of our hobby farm. The three lines are the sides and centre of a proposes mini strip. The blue lines are the prevailing wind, though it can come from the exact opposite direction as well through the gap in the trees at the top right. The surface is rolly and bumpy between 15% and 20% and cambers away gradually to each side. Pretty level across the slope though the middle though. I have cut it short rather than taking it down to the road to try and remove power lines from the equation. It is an 8 degree profile landing uphill to the North to clear the power lines by 50ft. Essentially it is a slopping bumpy 450ft one way strip. Trees are dense on the East and sparse on the West. Would still need good roll authority in a blow. 10knt tail wind component for takeoff and landing would be about the edge of the usual wind envelope. If it is more than that it is usually howling and raining, There is a neighbour's strip that is steeper but bigger and running East West close by as an alternate and proper runways roughly 10min flying away.

Question is: Is there any four seater I can get for 100k (no I can't afford a Sherpa as yet...) that will get in and out of here consistently or am I realistically limited to Justs and the like?

High-powered Maule, maybe? 450 feet isn't long enough for my skills, by any stretch of the imagination, although I can get my plane (MX-7-180A) off the ground and stopped in that amount of time lightly loaded. Just not consistently in the same spot.

With a Maule M-7-235 or M7-260 you *might* be able to power yourself out depending on load and uphill grade. I'm not sure I would be confident doing it with my family aboard.

It does look like you have a lot of open land to the northwest as a safety buffer to some degree. But it's not in my safety envelope, personally.

~Chris

Appreciated Chris,

Guessing you weren't suggesting a take off to the North with a 15 to 20% gradient?
Landings would be uphill to the North and takeoffs downhill to the South. If the wind was strong enough to wonder which way to go on that gradient then time to head to the airport, fair comment?

It would often be a quartering tail wind from the left for landing, could make the end of the roll a little interesting though we are pretty sheltered on the ground at Northern top and it flattens out up there too.

The strip would extend down the hill for a total of 720ft but the bottom section would only be usable for landing if you can manage a 25 degree profile to ensure clearing the power lines on the road by 50ft.

On take off to the South down the hill the wheels are level with the top power lines at 550ft so round it back to 450ft for the take off roll and an 8 degree climb profile required to clear the lines by 50ft, need to factor for a 10knt tail wind component.

So essentially rule out a 4 seater with:
450ft, 15 - 20% down slope and 10knts of tailwind for take off
~700 - 650ft for landing depending on how steep an approach profile can be managed with 15 - 20% up slope and a 10knts of tailwind?

I wasn't quite sure which end was the uphill end, to be honest. But now that you say to the northwest, then yeah, I probably wouldn't try to take off that way. I'm not as "off road" as some of the experts here, so I reckon I'll let them comment on that. I have seen videos of these guys landing uphill, but it's almost always a downhill takeoff.

Definitely a challenging environment you find yourself in! The high-power Maules could probably do what you're asking, but I'm sure experience will play a huge part in it. Perhaps @OregonMaule and others could comment. @Battson is in your neck of the woods. Perhaps he could offer some advice as well. He flies in the NZ backcountry a lot.

~Chris

Have you considered an R44 rotorwing? Or buying more land for another 600 of runway?

Oh dear, 100k gets me into the bottom of the R44 market... I have been trying not to look there!
- One I have developed a fixed wing prejudiced to project me from discovering heilos which I am sure I would love.
- Two always thought the running costs were mental and every thing had a time life on them, broke all the time anyway and every second AD seems to be for a helicopter... looks like 200/hr should do it all in for an R44. Range is a bit limited but then so are are most bush planes, save the doubleender with the belly tank...

Land around here is way more expensive than aircraft, so no to more of that.

Welcome. Don't try to takeoff uphill. Power not a huge issue downhill. Uphill is bad for any aircraft, including helicopter. Obstructions are bad. While moving fences, can you move the one under the wire? They are not an obstruction if we stay in six inches ground effect on the crop. Don't look at the wire. Hand tends to follow the eye. The local crop duster can work with you on that.

contactflying wrote:Welcome. Don't try to takeoff uphill. Power not a huge issue downhill. Uphill is bad for any aircraft, including helicopter. Obstructions are bad. While moving fences, can you move the one under the wire? They are not an obstruction if we stay in six inches ground effect on the crop. Don't look at the wire. Hand tends to follow the eye. The local crop duster can work with you on that.

Well, I don't often disagree with ContactFlying, but routine takeoffs and landings under power lines??? Yeah, we did it in Army helicopters, but only in combat or when training for combat situations. In a fixed-wing airplane, coming off a really short strip, with trees that can cause a lot of turbulence at the worst possible moment? Not a good idea, and a horrible idea with your family aboard. If you decide you want to place your runway there, then pay the power company to come bury the lines where they cross your runway. Yeah, it's going to cost you some $$, but it would reduce the risk of operating off what is already a very short runway.

I think you could land over those wires a lot closer in than you think with proper technique, which would increase landing distance available. No doubt you could fly a four seater in and out of there but with 4 POB .......I wouldn't!
I have a short strip, wires at both ends and while according to the POH I can get out at near MAUW there is no way I'm going to test that with family on board. If I'm carting the whole family safer just to pick them up from a nearby better strip. But if your looking at hangaring your own plane at that strip I'd be doing it light every time and accept that is the limitation of the strip. Maule, Pacer, Bearhawk should all be able to do that lightly loaded, for routine operations it would very much come down to the pilot not the aircraft!


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You're right, JP256, about having the line buried. Going under can be pretty routine. Never took passengers except Ag students though.

NZMaule wrote:I think you could land over those wires a lot closer in than you think with proper technique, which would increase landing distance available. No doubt you could fly a four seater in and out of there but with 4 POB .......I wouldn't!
I have a short strip, wires at both ends and while according to the POH I can get out at near MAUW there is no way I'm going to test that with family on board. If I'm carting the whole family safer just to pick them up from a nearby better strip. But if your looking at hangaring your own plane at that strip I'd be doing it light every time and accept that is the limitation of the strip. Maule, Pacer, Bearhawk should all be able to do that lightly loaded, for routine operations it would very much come down to the pilot not the aircraft!


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I like this advise a lot. Landing short with obstacles, slopes, tailwinds and the like is challenging but also obviously carries more risk especially when adding a few together. As soon as I put a passenger or my family on board those strips are not an option, the dog is an exception, haha! I accept the risks but a pax doesn't comprehend the risks you're taking for them so its out. I also tend to get a bit comfortable with tough spots when using them frequently and that's when things sometimes unravel or get caught by surprise. Anyway in short I would make a personal rule for a strip like that to solo in and out only. Great having multiple alternates close by though, hope it works out!

Great first post by the way, welcome!

NZMaule wrote:I think you could land over those wires a lot closer in than you think with proper technique, which would increase landing distance available. No doubt you could fly a four seater in and out of there but with 4 POB .......I wouldn't!
I have a short strip, wires at both ends and while according to the POH I can get out at near MAUW there is no way I'm going to test that with family on board. If I'm carting the whole family safer just to pick them up from a nearby better strip. But if your looking at hangaring your own plane at that strip I'd be doing it light every time and accept that is the limitation of the strip. Maule, Pacer, Bearhawk should all be able to do that lightly loaded, for routine operations it would very much come down to the pilot not the aircraft!

This post summarises it nicely.

I think it's all about exposure.
If you land upon a very difficult airstrip often enough, then it just becomes a numbers game. Either you minimise the risk by being ultra conservative and avoiding any difficult conditions, or eventually something goes wrong.

Cheers folks, very helpful.

I see from the comments on flying under wires there must a bit of confusion as to where they are. Maybe I should post a video of the walk down the 'strip'?

The top of the poles are below wheel height at 450 feet and 400ft away so lifting off and then trying to duck under them across a road with little visibility from the left = bush plane vs car... or horse in our area!

So there is nothing in the heavy touring class that regularly and easily do 450ft ground roll down a 15% steepening to 20% slope with no obstructions save power lines at the bottom of the hill that you are lifting off above the top of and then managing an 8 degree climb with a 10 knt tail wind component?

I am guessing this would be a non-issue for a Just Highlander / SuperSTOL or the like even fully loaded?

If I’m smelling what you’re stepping in, A lightly loaded skywagon shouldn’t have a problem doing that. A picture might help.

As far as winds and direction: push the plane up that hill then push it down the hill and imagine how much wind you need to even that amount of effort out. Hint: A shit load. Sounds like yours would be a one way with that much wind on the tail.


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Get plenty of insurance. Hull and life.

Tim

Third try for this post.
Lost my last post somewhere I will try again.

10 knots on the tail is a LOT!!! So now you have a fully loaded sky wagon rolling hard down the hill at 60 mph, but not feeling right with that 10 knot tailwind, and you decide too abort the takeoff. How long is that going to take to stop now that you are on the steep part of the hill??? Have you tried to take off a lot with 10 knots on the tail and a heavy loaded aircraft?? Tailwinds don't care if a plane has STOL on the tail on in the name. Most of the youtube STOL stuff is done with big headwinds. Go load up a Just, Pa 18, or Cessna and see just how bad a tailwind hurts before you throw a lot of money/time into this.
DENNY

Flow wrote:I see from the comments on flying under wires there must a bit of confusion as to where they are. Maybe I should post a video of the walk down the 'strip'?

The top of the poles are below wheel height at 450 feet and 400ft away so lifting off and then trying to duck under them across a road with little visibility from the left = bush plane vs car... or horse in our area!

I don't think anyone was suggesting to go UNDER wires. That would be suicidal.

I would always be prepared to go under the wires. I would say safer in the long run. If the road was not also in the path I would just say stay low and climb later. The real problem is the road with unknown traffic issues blocked by all the trees. Flying low takes a while to get used to and everyone is trained to climb after takeoff. I am not a crop-duster but do spend a fair amount of time below tree level. It is not a big deal once you get used to it. The problem with this strip is really the road. He has to be able to clear a big truck if one comes by and now he is most likely too high to go under wires but may not make it over.
DENNY

DENNY wrote:I would always be prepared to go under the wires. I would say safer in the long run. If the road was not also in the path I would just say stay low and climb later. The real problem is the road with unknown traffic issues blocked by all the trees. Flying low takes a while to get used to and everyone is trained to climb after takeoff. I am not a crop-duster but do spend a fair amount of time below tree level. It is not a big deal once you get used to it. The problem with this strip is really the road. He has to be able to clear a big truck if one comes by and now he is most likely too high to go under wires but may not make it over.
DENNY

That's spot on sir, the wires are really just motivation not to hit a horse float. I had a better survey of it today and it is more like 530ft of take off roll on a 8-10 degree, 15-18% down hill slope before a bit of a drop off. The wire height is actually at the 630ft mark. So if you lift off at or before 530ft you have at least 15ft below your wheels to the top of the poles to start with.

I still would like to factor in a 10knt tail wind component but is this starting to look less sketchy for a reasonably powerful heavy touring class ship? Yes I have taken off and landed in 10knts of tail wind specifically for one way strip prep and yes it is a lot! I had one flat one way strip due to terrain with 15knts of tail wind and a mighty reverse gradient on the climb out that had me do it by my self first and waiting for a lull before loading up.. hence my personal 10knots max. Range flags on the edge fences (it is also my load development range) and online weather stations top and bottom would be the plan to allow for the early diversion if needed. But only if the numbers add up to a sure thing in the first place.

Guess I really need to know if the usual slope calcs still work at 15-18% gradients. In theory a 5% gradient should easily cover off a 10 knot tail wind component right? But is there a law of diminishing returns over 5%? What about the exaggerated rotation etc.

In theory, theory and practice should be the same but in practice that are not.

That feeling of getting shoved in the ass, nose up in the air clawing for altitude, a little wind shear to boot, looking at the treetops wondering what the hell you just did, that's a pretty crap feeling, probably the worst. I could only imagine what 10-15 on the tail out of a tight spot would feel like. Any tail wind with all the rest going on at that strip wouldn't be for me but it's easy to make a call from a computer. If you're somewhat confident in making it work probably best way forward is going for a fly, do some low slow passes.