I have been thinking about a panel redesign for the C180. Over the summer I have looked at a lot of Skywagon panels, and a simple/ clean / lightweight VFR panel always draws me in. A portable panel mounted GPS like a G496/G696 is so capable these days, and all my flying for the last 10 years has been strictly VFR (I do live in CO though / 300+ days of sun).

Has anyone ever stripped a Skywagon to a VFR panel (removed the vacuum pump/system) and regretted it? Some of the lightest Skywagons I see have very basic VFR panels. Would it ruin the utility of a C180? Resale? The only time I might use an IFR panel is to get a takeoff clearance to go VFR on top (No hard IFR). But the pilot and instrument certifications make just waiting it out on the ground that much more appealing (I might use the takeoff clearance option once a year, if that).

I'm thinking basic VFR instruments, G496 or G696 panel mounted GPS (airgizmos), Garmin SL40 comm, and a engine analyzer would make a clean and functional, lightweight panel without all the IFR complexities.

I will be using the C180 much more to travel with the family. But, I'm not sure I have any desire to fly IFR with them on board.

Thoughts and opinions? Experiences? Other options? Tell me I'm not crazy, or am I?

Thanks,
MM

A C180 is actually a pretty nice IFR platform for a light, single engine airplane. And it's so flexible when it comes to maintaining speeds on approaches, and still being able to slow down and land with minimal runway time.

Is an extra 10-15 pounds really going to make that much difference?

Gump

Matt
Before


after



This'll get you VFR on top and ILS. Since this pix I had the single com King taken out and added another KX125 Nav/com and eliminated the 496 and went with the AERA 560. And a few other additions I'm real pleased with.

I am a believer in having at LEAST an artificial horizon in any "traveling" airplane. It's not to operate actual, intentional IFR. It's a get out of the goo tool in the event that I do something stupid....and I have. I hope I don't again, but....

This could be done with one of the electric gyros, but they are spendy, and if you already have a vacuum pump......

I agree with Gump. For one thing, your needs/mission may well change one day, and then you'd be REALLY regretting having stripped that vacuum system out of the plane.

I'd consider keeping the vacuum instruments, junking all the miscellaneous stuff, get it down to one GOOD radio, like a Garmin 430 or equal, and an engine analyzer. Now, you'll have a legal IFR airplane, barely, but updated, and with a LOT of options. The Garmin 430 is a magic radio, by the way, with LOTS of power,,,,more than a VFR GPS.

MTV

I juist think your crazy Matt...

Keep it light and simple but dont give up on the plattfrom. Just flying around here in the smoke the past month the panel has come in handy. I know that you know this...

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/news/articles/featured-bush-planes/kevin-quinn-1953-cessna-180

AKT

Thanks guys for offering a different perspective. I agree, it seems somewhat silly to remove the vacuum and gyro instruments from a solid IFR platform like the 180. Right now I just have way to many avionics and instruments, and I find myself primarily looking at the GPS when my head is down. I need to simplify, so it leads me down this road of thought. How far is too far?

I really like what Russ (Glidergeek) did, simple and useful. Keep the pictures and comments coming. There has to be someone else out there that is running a non-vacuum 180/185.

I don't claim any expertise on this part of your issue, but I think you'll have a problem yanking the vacuum system from a certificated airplane without a lot of head-knocking from the FAA.

But whether that's really an issue or not, read my recent posts in the Instrument Rating thread. Honestly, if you're going to travel in the 180 (and it's a good traveling airplane IMHO), you really should consider getting your IR and keeping the airplane as at least a basic IFR-equipped and certified airplane.

Incidentally, the story I told in my last post in the Instrument Rating thread--that trip was in a 172 equipped with only one nav/com, a transponder, and a basic 6-pack. It's not necessary to have the airplane equipped like an airliner to go IFR. On the other hand, in today's world, you can have a marvelously equipped airplane that can get into almost every public use airport in the country, with a 430W. When the ADS-B requirements take place in less than 6 1/2 years, you'll need a Mode S transponder and an ADS-B receiver in addition to an IFR certified WAAS GPS, to get into any Class B airport or within a Class B area (30 miles outside the Class B boundaries is the currently written rule--could change by then).

If you're at Marble this coming weekend, stop by and look at my airplane's panel. It's slightly more elaborate than necessary, but not way overdone. In the 9 1/2 years I've owned this airplane, I've had several trips that were made much easier by being able to go IFR, one that couldn't have been made until a couple days later if I couldn't have gone IFR, and several that I made VFR which would have been lots easier if I could have gone IFR but I wasn't current--including this latest trip to and from OSH. I'm current now, incidentally. But obviously, although it's a hot rod 172, it's still a 172, so I don't go "hard" IFR.

Cary

IFR on the front range has proven difficult for me. If it's not ice, even in the summer, it's the 17k' MEAs where I'm usually going. I have scored some departures out of low ceilings in the PNW, though, saving me a lot of time, money, and vacation days. Other folks I know here locally fly IFR all the time. I'm just too conservative.

I do like my 396 with XM: it has saved me a lot of time when flying VFR through the weather, and occasionally making the decision to sit on the ground a lot easier and certain. It also drives my 406 ELT (it has its own battery, and the connectors were easier to cobble up for the ELT).

The 300XL (TSO) is fine for approaches, and doesn't weigh much at all. The radio sounds ok too.

I'm guessing my pump, vacuum instruments, filter, gauge, and plumbing probably weigh less than 15 lbs. My DG weighs under 3lbs (with AP encoder), AI around 4lbs, pump around 4, plumbing around a few pounds. I think that might make a 1% difference. Plus the DG runs a, AP that weighs an additional 12 pounds in my case (motor, rate gyro, motor drive, and the panel mount controller). It is really nice to have on longer XC flights. My electricT&B weighs about the same as a softball.

I personally would rather buy avgas than invest in anything more than I have, but it does make those occasional trips where I might run into weather a bit more predictable every now and then.

How old is all the gear in your panel?

I know you know all this, but it's worth rethinking some...

I REALLY like light weight airplanes... but I think you'll find that if you check weights on modern day radio gear you'd find that a reasonably capable modern day IFR panel built up weight conscientiously, will come in several pounds less than a 'light weight' semi stripped panel of old gear. I also don't think there isn't much merit in trying to build an airplane into something it's not... like trying to turn a skywagon into a supercub...

Sticking in a new radio here, and another new piece there, is kind of how most of us do it, but doesn't really fit the diet plan. Better to stash the pieces in the closet until you can redo the whole thing at once, and really revamp the whole shooting match, including wire, breakers and switches. IMHO Kevin's panel is a pretty darn good example of this. Most of his components weigh half of their earlier counterparts.

Another thought to consider; money comes into play with all of our airplane upgrades, but sometimes holding out might let you buy more / bigger... If buying one of the newer 'all up' certified engine monitors could be in the cards in the future, I'd hold out on a panel build and work that into the IFR panel upgrade... Yes, I am aware that engine monitors have nothing to do with the VFR / IFR consideration at face value, but, looking at Kevin's panel for an example, I see at least 7 instruments than could be replaced by one box, which in turn not only weighs less than half the removed weight, but also frees up and simplifies panel real estate. I keep the same mentality with breakers and switches. When I build a panel, anything that gets a switch, gets a breaker switch. This means one less component in the panel, less weight, less used up real estate, and one less electrical junction to corrode or fail. Again, not directly related to the IFR / VFR equation, but certainly worthy of consideration when weight is one of the deciding factors in the decision making process.
Take care, Rob

Hey Matt - I'm in the basic IFR group. When I ordered my plane, I had it setup for IFR, just in case. The Maule isn't a great platform for IFR, but it has come in handy on a couple of occasions when I needed to pop through. Nothing better than an autopilot when you get in the crud. Agree with your comments about not flying IFR with the family - I'm going to buy a better x-country platform for that and keep the Maule for fun.

Jim

Im right there with Rob's comments. I went with a full IFR set-up and (with respect to the panel) am net net 25 lbs lighter than I was before with all the boat anchor crap removed. 430, SL30, 796, 330, Stec 30, GPSS, 2 Garmin 106s and the MVP-50. Using the MVP I was able to toss so much extra crap. Like Rob said, the new radios are so much lighter than the old. I understand that you have an older 180 and panel real estate is much more valuable, but adding an MVP, a single Sl30 that interfaces with a yoke mounted 796 (or even better air gizmo) would be one kick ass set up. With the SL30 you can listen to one freq while monitoring a second, and the 796 will drive the SL30. The 796 is the cat's meow and sat Wx is the bomb. Much better than the free stuff. Anyway... keeping it light IFR really isnt that much more weight. Modern vac hose, regulator, and pump are all pretty negligible. Your much better having that safety margin if you should need it rather than the 2-4lbs you might save tossing the vac system.

Thanks for all the feedback. This is exactly the info I was looking for, real world experience and advice from other like minded pilots.

Cary, I have passed the IR (CFII too), but I do need a IPC. At this time, I don't think I can get to Marble this weekend due to family commitments, but perhaps we can meet another time (La Garita?).

Lesuther, thanks for the feedback, your thoughts mirror my thoughts. Your flying mission seems to correspond with what my future flying missions will mostly be (maybe a little more off airport stuff for me).

Rob, your post speaks volumes about my current panel. It's from the 70's; old, heavy, and takes some effort to use. I promised myself I would fly with it for a while and see what I like and didn't like. And to be honest, I don't like much of what's there. Budget is my biggest factor, and this needs to be very low cost (I need to re-use what I can and sell what I pull). Another factor is that I'm probably more distracted by what's in the plane now than a simple and effective setup. If I'm going to tear into this, I may as well make it light too. I'm not trying to turn this 180 into a cub, I'm just trying to be realistic on what I need and don't need.
Here is my current setup: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-sjlx ... C07108.JPG

Jaudette, I agree with you. A basic IFR panel would be useful on a rare occasion. The C180 is a much more capable plane than what I've previously owned, so my future missions may include some light IFR flying.

Bigrenna, your comments will only cost me financial burden, and I can no longer open your build thread. J/K Excellent point with the SL30 and G796, this is something I would like to interface into my panel overhaul. I don't have near the budget you have, but a little forward thought will really tie things together and enhance the overall functionality.

Keep the comments coming.

Matt I did the buy a little at a time watch for deals, eBay, Trade a plane and Barnstormers. Find a capable radio man that will work with you and sign off on your project.

Family commitment ? you changing diapers this coming weekend

Glidergeek wrote:Matt I did the buy a little at a time watch for deals, eBay, Trade a plane and Barnstormers. Find a capable radio man that will work with you and sign off on your project.

Family commitment ? you changing diapers this coming weekend

Yep, I have a sharp eye for deals out there. I hope to tear into it this Oct and be done by mid Nov. The basement shower has been empty for far too long....

I've logged more hours changing diapers than in the air this last month. Spent more money on huggies than 100LL too.

mountainmatt wrote:Bigrenna, your comments will only cost me financial burden, and I can no longer open your build thread. J/K Excellent point with the SL30 and G796, this is something I would like to interface into my panel overhaul. I don't have near the budget you have, but a little forward thought will really tie things together and enhance the overall functionality.

Keep the comments coming.

Matt,

Dont think the taps are unlimited on my end... My project was 2 years in prep and savings before I went full on. Sourcing deals was the only way I could get it done. All my avionics were mostly found used cheap. If your crafty, you can really get lots of bang for you buck while still having a top shelf set up.

Shoot for the stands.

mountainmatt wrote:I've logged more hours changing diapers than in the air this last month. Spent more money on huggies than 100LL too.

Ha ha! I know how that goes!

mountainmatt wrote:Thanks for all the feedback. This is exactly the info I was looking for, real world experience and advice from other like minded pilots.

Keep the comments coming.

Matt, Here is the panel in the 1961 210A I'm flying up here, 430, 696 in a gizmo, Ipad mini on a Ram.
Would not be afraid to fly just about anywhere, as long as there was not to much solid water in the clouds!
Have 2 big screens to look at the approach and 1 that puts your aircraft on the plate as you fly it, 2 extra panels if shit hits the fan and 1 with a little ap that if you hit it it gives you course and needed flight direction to the end of the nearest runway!
It would be nice to have a AP just to go Straight and level while you look up stuff, but it really is no a have to have item!



Does not matter what you have in the panel if you are not up to snuff on makin it all work!!

Matt,

I just finished my restoration on my '57 180 (actually have 8 hours on it now) and ran into this same question. My panel was the stock old job with the plastic overlay which I really did not like. However the instruments were a basic 6 pack, a com and a nav/com, Tx, audio panel and engine instruments. While my nav /com will run a glideslope, I didn't have one so a standard VOR went in instead. In the overhaul I ditched the old cluster gauge and added an EI tach, MP, G1, and FS450. I also rearranged the steam gauges to be as close to a standard 6 pack configuration as I could get. I cadded up my panel blanks and had a local shop laser them for me. I absolutely love how it turned out... Simple and light yet useful. By the way, through all the upgrades I ended up shedding weight from the factory. Weighed 1656 from the factory and it topped the scales on Aug. 1 at 1640. Very fun airplane that's for sure.

For what its worth... E.I. has a new engine monitor system that looks really awesome. Its the CGR-30P. I saw it out at Osh. Its basically the MVP-50, but will fit in (if you want all the functionality of the MVP) two 3 1/8 holes. This is approved and allows for the removal of all legacy stuff. MP, Tach, Oil P/T, etc... Great weight/space savings.

http://buy-ei.com/portfolio/cgr-30p/

What about electric DG and attitude indicator?

Tom