Can any of you "old timey" pilots who flew when they were popular explain these things? There are still quite a few around and to honest I don't really know the rules pertaining to them. Why are they where they are? Why not just make 'em Delta or Charlie airspace? What's required to enter them. Cloud clearance? Speed restrictions?

Thanks in advance,

Gp

Terminal Radar Service Area.
I thought they had all be replaced by B or C airspace. Had to look it up.
Turns out they were never subject to official rule making so they did not directly fall into one of the new airspace classifications. Participation is voluntary and provides VFR advisories near busier class D airports where radar service is available. That's it, no other speed or weather restrictions since they are not technically classified as D airspace although the ones that are still there would occupy roughly the same space as the local class D airspace.
There will be a test tomorrow to see if I understand what I wrote.

There's one over Fairbanks. In practice it works exactly like the preceding post says.

Well in my travels I've come across quite a few and the dimensions are much bigger than class D.

Here's a quick list I found from where I've been lately and the top of the TSRA;

Bristol, 10,000 ft.
Wilimgton, 6,000 ft.
Agusta GA, 10,000 ft.
Macon GA, 10,000 ft.
Montgomery AL, 6,000 ft.
Huntington Al, 6,000 ft.
Wilkes-Barre, 6,000 ft.

Many of these encompass the class C or D below and some do not. Does any of this help jog some memories? I wish I knew what the rules were and why they exist instead of the normal airspace around airports (B, C, and D).

Thanks again. I'd hate to have to look this up or call a FSDO.

Palm Springs is a TSRA. I've always thought of it as an optional Class C airspace. You can optionally treat it as Class C airspace or you can choose not to participate and treat it like Class D. I'm sure one of our CFI's will smack me down and say that's all wrong. I think equipment and weather requirements of Class C *may* apply however.

Boy does that question joggle my memory...

Seems to me I remember group 1,2,3 TCA's. ARSA's and TRSA's and a host of other airspace regs...... ....

From the AIM:

3-5-6. Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA)

a. Background. TRSAs were originally established as part of the Terminal Radar Program at selected airports. TRSAs were never controlled airspace from a regulatory standpoint because the establishment of TRSAs was never subject to the rulemaking process; consequently, TRSAs are not contained in 14 CFR Part 71 nor are there any TRSA operating rules in 14 CFR Part 91. Part of the Airport Radar Service Area (ARSA) program was to eventually replace all TRSAs. However, the ARSA requirements became relatively stringent and it was subsequently decided that TRSAs would have to meet ARSA criteria before they would be converted. TRSAs do not fit into any of the U.S. airspace classes; therefore, they will continue to be non-Part 71 airspace areas where participating pilots can receive additional radar services which have been redefined as TRSA Service.

b. TRSAs. The primary airport(s) within the TRSA become(s) Class D airspace. The remaining portion of the TRSA overlies other controlled airspace which is normally Class E airspace beginning at 700 or 1,200 feet and established to transition to/from the en route/terminal environment.

c. Participation. Pilots operating under VFR are encouraged to contact the radar approach control and avail themselves of the TRSA Services. However, participation is voluntary on the part of the pilot. See Chapter 4, Air Traffic Control, for details and procedures.

d. Charts. TRSAs are depicted on VFR sectional and terminal area charts with a solid black line and altitudes for each segment. The Class D portion is charted with a blue segmented line.

The only one I've ever encountered is at Great Falls, MT, and it's around a class D airport.

http://runwayfinder.com/?loc=kgtf
(is it ok to use runwayfinder since they likely sold out to patent trolls? )

svanarts wrote:Palm Springs is a TSRA. I've always thought of it as an optional Class C airspace. You can optionally treat it as Class C airspace or you can choose not to participate and treat it like Class D. I'm sure one of our CFI's will smack me down and say that's all wrong. I think equipment and weather requirements of Class C *may* apply however.

Well as a CFI that flies in that TSRA all the time I can say you mostly got it right, only unlike Delta you dont need to talk to anyone to enter it, you can just ignore it if you like.

However KPSP has crazy good radar coverage in the TRSA and they dont even charge you for it so I like to use it (unless I am doing airwork in sky valley), one time tower even gave one of my students a warning for a possible flock of birds he had on his screen.

svanarts, you in the desert?

-93K

GlassPilot wrote:Can any of you "old timey" pilots who flew when they were popular explain these things? There are still quite a few around and to honest I don't really know the rules pertaining to them. Why are they where they are? Why not just make 'em Delta or Charlie airspace? What's required to enter them. Cloud clearance? Speed restrictions?

Thanks in advance,

Gp

I went through one in AR I believe it was in Fayettville

At one point, it was the intent of the FAA to eliminate "ARSA's", and they nearly did, when the "new" alphabet airspace came into being. But, then they realized that they really did need something in between Charlie airspace and Delta, when there is a radar approach control facility, and a lot of traffic. Thence, the TRSA, and they've been adding them ever since.

Participation is indeed optional, HOWEVER, if you contact Approach inbound, or contact Clearance Delivery outbound, and you do NOT want to participate in TRSA Services, you need to tell them on the first call up: "Negative TRSA Services". At that point, you are dealing with Delta airspace, pure and simple. You can also opt out at any point by simply saying "Cancel TRSA Services".

So, what does the TRSA do for us, if we opt in? When you opt in, the controller is REQUIRED to provide POSITIVE RADAR separation between your aircraft and other PARTICIPATING TRAFFIC. There are several things that meet the criteria of positive radar separation, including green between on the radar, 5 miles (I believe) between, and altitude separation with Mode C. OR, if the controller calls traffic for you, you tell the controller you SEE the traffic, the controller will tell you to maintain VISUAL separation from that traffic. At that point, the separation issue is YOUR baby, not the controller's problem, though they obviously won't ignore you.

The only glitch is that participation is optional. So if you participate, there may be aircraft other tehre without a transponder, and ATC may not be able to see them and separate you...... I've used TRSA a LOT (at FAI and FAR) and generally, the controllers work pretty hard to keep traffic separated and flowing.

The TRSA at FAI came about because the FAA wanted CHarlie airspace, and proposed it. A group of pilots there asked them to justify it, based on traffic, and FAI only met one of the criteria for Charlie airspace. The issue was ATC staffing, which is in part based on traffic count. We proposed TRSA, since participating traffic counts in traffic count, which they don't in Delta airspace (if they're VFR).. ATC agreed, and has worked beautifully, got them the staffing they needed at busy times, and works for the pilots. No Mode C required.

MTV

mtv wrote:No Mode C required.

MTV

As a former Taylorcraft pilot, that was a big benny. FAI would ask me to turn on some heading for five minutes until they could positively identify me, and then all the TRSA services would kick in. For all the little non-electric jobs in Chena Marina and elsewhere, that kept the door open. Sort of like the Class C exclusion that lets you get into and out of LHD.

MTV- if you had a hand in that, well, then thank you!

-DP

denalipilot wrote:There's one over Fairbanks. In practice it works exactly like the preceding post says.

Yep, and the controllers are grumpy too!

Oldcrowe wrote:

denalipilot wrote:There's one over Fairbanks. In practice it works exactly like the preceding post says.

Yep, and the controllers are grumpy too!

I've actually never seen a group of controllers that were easier to work with than the FAI controllers. If you have a beef with them, contact the supervisor. He's a GOOD guy, and very responsive to legitimate gripes.

Now, Fargo, on the other hand....

And, of course, it probably all depends on what's going on, who's on watch, what YOU (or I) do, and the phase of the moon.

Your mileage may vary.

MTV

mtv wrote:...The only glitch is that participation is optional. So if you participate, there may be aircraft other tehre without a transponder, and ATC may not be able to see them and separate you......

I'm not sure about that one,

as I said above they have warned me about large flocks of birds and I have yet to see a pigeon equipped with 2way and a xpdr.


Normally if non participating traffic is in my path or converging they will say unidentified target at your 11 o'clock alt unknown.

NineThreeKilo wrote:

svanarts wrote:Palm Springs is a TSRA. I've always thought of it as an optional Class C airspace. You can optionally treat it as Class C airspace or you can choose not to participate and treat it like Class D. I'm sure one of our CFI's will smack me down and say that's all wrong. I think equipment and weather requirements of Class C *may* apply however.

Well as a CFI that flies in that TSRA all the time I can say you mostly got it right, only unlike Delta you dont need to talk to anyone to enter it, you can just ignore it if you like.

However KPSP has crazy good radar coverage in the TRSA and they dont even charge you for it so I like to use it (unless I am doing airwork in sky valley), one time tower even gave one of my students a warning for a possible flock of birds he had on his screen.

svanarts, you in the desert?

-93K

Nope, I'm up in the Central Valley. O27. But I'll be passing through the high desert this summer.

NineThreeKilo wrote:

mtv wrote:...The only glitch is that participation is optional. So if you participate, there may be aircraft other tehre without a transponder, and ATC may not be able to see them and separate you......

I'm not sure about that one,

as I said above they have warned me about large flocks of birds and I have yet to see a pigeon equipped with 2way and a xpdr.


Normally if non participating traffic is in my path or converging they will say unidentified target at your 11 o'clock alt unknown.

And, NORMALLY that's true. My point was, however, that it is easy to get complacent in a radar environment, and it is important to note that a very high percentage of mid air collisions occur IN a radar environment.

My closest near miss was me in a Cessna 185 on floats inbound to the Fairbanks airport from the north. Another 185 (on wheels), non transponder equipped flew right past my windshield, about 50 feet ahead. We were less than five miles from the radar antenna, and I called Approach to inform them they had a plane in the surface area, and inquiring why they didn't call it as traffic. The controller said "no targets on radar in your vicinity". I had two witnesses, and we were all a little jittery. Talked to the ATC folks, and they even played the radar tapes back for us the next day. No target. Turns out the other airplane was flying tangential to the radar antenna, and was basically invisible to the radar, until he turned away from the radar, and suddenly appeared as a target.

This was NOT ATC's fault. But it highlights my point: Keep your eyes open. Radar isn't perfect, and neither are radar operators. We all try, but ultimately, the BEST means to avoid a midair collision is to LOOK out the windows.

MTV

mtv wrote:

Oldcrowe wrote:

denalipilot wrote:There's one over Fairbanks. In practice it works exactly like the preceding post says.

Yep, and the controllers are grumpy too!

I've actually never seen a group of controllers that were easier to work with than the FAI controllers. If you have a beef with them, contact the supervisor. He's a GOOD guy, and very responsive to legitimate gripes.

Now, Fargo, on the other hand....

And, of course, it probably all depends on what's going on, who's on watch, what YOU (or I) do, and the phase of the moon.

Your mileage may vary.

MTV

Mike, you are correct, my mistake I've been on the road and responded with my phone... no knowledge about Fairbanks... I was seeing red about the FARGO bunch on my tiny little screen... I hereby apologize to Fairbanks.

I get into Fargo a couple-three times a year to meet with a client and every single time I get treated like crap... I'm used to radar service, congested airspace, controller hand offs and the like (hell I'm based out of KRVS and it is one busy place, Class D with 600-800 cycles per day and located under the outer ring of a Class C) and my instructor was a senior tower controller (an old friend of Kase’s) so you can bet I am polite on the radio and know (ok mostly) how to do it properly.

Worst time ever to FARGO was a trip where I requested a North (main active runway) takeoff followed by a right downwind to a south departure for weather avoidance. The tower returned with what’s your on course and I told him SW but needed to go east then south to avoid incoming weather... He denied it said they were VFR (could care less about the obviously incoming system) and gave me West departure (crosswind). Unfortunately, I took it and after twice requesting a left for weather both denied (they wouldn't let me parallel the N/S runway at 3 miles because of incoming traffic from the south. They did give me one 15 left to stay VFR and ushered me out of their space and in short order was in a serious scud land and hit nearest and spend two days 25 miles from where I started and all I wanted to do was go around it east then south. Then lets not forget one fine arrival from the south west where I'm quite sure I saw Canada before they turned me back inbound and turned me over to the tower. Now I go into West Fargo and don’t talk to the radar club and I told the FBO when he called to see if I was coming back anytime soon that I seriously doubted it and he could send a thank the controllers for the loss of my business.

AGAIN Fairbanks I’m sorry!

mtv wrote:

Oldcrowe wrote:

denalipilot wrote:There's one over Fairbanks. In practice it works exactly like the preceding post says.

Yep, and the controllers are grumpy too!

I've actually never seen a group of controllers that were easier to work with than the FAI controllers. If you have a beef with them, contact the supervisor. He's a GOOD guy, and very responsive to legitimate gripes.

Now, Fargo, on the other hand....

And, of course, it probably all depends on what's going on, who's on watch, what YOU (or I) do, and the phase of the moon.

Your mileage may vary.

MTV

Mike, you are correct, my mistake I've been on the road and responded with my phone... no knowledge about Fairbanks... I was seeing red about the FARGO bunch on my tiny little screen... I hereby apologize to Fairbanks.

I get into Fargo a couple-three times a year to meet with a client and every single time I get treated like crap... I'm used to radar service, congested airspace, controller hand offs and the like (hell I'm based out of KRVS and it is one busy place, Class D with 600-800 cycles per day and lo9cated under the outer ring of a Class C) and my instructor was a senior tower controller (an old friend of Kase’s) so you can bet I am polite on the radio and know (ok mostly) how to do it properly.

Worst time ever to FARGO was a trip where I requested a North (main active runway) takeoff followed by a right downwind to a south departure for weather avoidance. The tower returned with what’s your on course and I told him SW but needed to go east then south to avoid incoming weather... He denied it said they were VFR (could care less about the obviously incoming system) and gave me West departure (crosswind). Unfortunately, I took it and after twice requesting a left for weather both denied (they wouldn't let me parallel the N/S runway at 3 miles because of incoming traffic from the south. They did give me one 15 left to stay VFR and ushered me out of their space and in short order was in a serious scud land and hit nearest and spend two days 25 miles from where I started and all I wanted to do was go around it east then south. Then lets not forget one fine arrival from the south west where I'm quite sure I saw Canada before they turned me back inbound and turned me over to the tower. Now I go into West Fargo and don’t talk to the radar club and I told the FBO when he called to see if I was coming back anytime soon that I seriously doubted it and he could send a thank the controllers for the loss of my business.

AGAIN Fairbanks I’m sorry!

I've had similar experiences with the Fargo controllers. At least partially in their defense, they are a training facility, but then so is Fairbanks, and what a world of difference.

It seems like every ATC operation has it's own "culture": Some are really friendly and accommodating, and others do their best not to be helpful. Fortunately, at least in my experience, the former seem to be more common than the latter.

Another Fargo story: I was departing with a student, headed home (north and a bit east) at 10 PM one fine evening. Not another soul in flight in the Fargo area, and total silence on the radio. They departed us west and trying to be a conscientious instructor, I told the student to accept TRSA services. We took off, and the controller told us to maintain runway heading till advised. We did, for about ten to twelve miles (west--away from our course). I finally inquired of the controller if we could have an on course turn. He came back with a rather indignant "Maintain runway heading till advised". I responded "Cancel TRSA Service, squawking VFR, turning on course, good night". He came back with "frequency change approved". By that time, we were well outside their airspace anyway.

And, I've had other experiences with them, nearly every time I go there.

Must be something in the water.

MTV