I know where not ag pilots. but still a worth while watch. In some ways its stating the obvious. but still worth viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... wrfEsCiltc

The lesson is good for all of us though: There's no legitimate justification for flying on the edge of the aerodynamic envelope. In ag flying, flying on the edge risks the business. Our perspective is different, but the risks aren't. The kind of flying we do is supposed to be fun--so why take the chance of ending the fun prematurely?

For instance, we see people do a canyon turn which uses an excessively steep bank--almost aerobatic, right at the stall--and that's just not necessary. Slow down, use less bank, the turn radius will still be adequately short. More importantly, think ahead and don't get into such a tight a situation.

Cary

Very good video. The Call Air was an unpopular ag plane because it would drop a wing in a turn that was pushing the envelope. We are always pushing the nose around with rudder to complete the turn early enough to get the wing level over the wires and trees. When young, I had the low wing drop out twice in my third season. Just a tap on the up wing rudder brought it back to flying both times. However, I became conservative like Wayne suggested in the video. We could average twenty seconds or so in the older, slower planes. I began taking just a little longer in the turns and avoided the inevitable should I have not.

In the canyon turn there is no need to turn steeper than necessary to get the nose down into the valley and miss the other ridge. Like Cary says, if we plan and stay close to the downwind ridge where we get the most oregraphic lift anyway, we will be able to make a shallower and safer banked turn to go back down valley. As always, let the nose fall through naturally in the turn to mitigate load factor.

Cary wrote: There's no legitimate justification for flying on the edge of the aerodynamic envelope.

For instance, we see people do a canyon turn which uses an excessively steep bank--almost aerobatic, right at the stall--and that's just not necessary. Slow down, use less bank, the turn radius will still be adequately short. More importantly, think ahead and don't get into such a tight a situation.

Cary

I disagree!
Practicing in a safe place is absolutely necessary.
If you ever find yourself trying to get through a pass with a low ceiling and turn a corner to find a wall of "CRAP" previously practicing on the edge of the aerodynamic envelope will probably save your life.

Even a student practicing stalls is flying past the edge of the aerodynamic envelope.

Do it safely and learn your airplane!!!

I think you misunderstood what I'm trying to say, because I don't think you and I disagree, at all. Practicing, learning, etc., are different from regularly doing for no good reason. Learning the limits in a safe environment is a whole lot different from pushing the limits unnecessarily.

For instance, using the canyon turns thing again, I learned canyon turns over a wide, flat area, using country roads on section lines to define the "canyon" walls, at a high enough altitude that if I was close to the stall and blew it, it was an easy recovery. That's a lot different from intentionally flying into a narrow canyon and turning around in a semi-aerobatic turn just to prove that it can be done.

Or to use your example, students don't practice stalls at 400' AGL, although the turn from base to final at that altitude is typically where inadvertent stalls occur--they practice them at sufficient altitude that if they blow it, they'll have time to recover. But they learn to recognize an oncoming stall so that when they are turning base to final, they won't stall.

So we're in agreement about learning and practicing at the edge, or even beyond, the envelope--but we shouldn't go to or beyond the edge in our normal everyday flying unnecessarily.

Cary

SE6601KF wrote:

Cary wrote: There's no legitimate justification for flying on the edge of the aerodynamic envelope.

For instance, we see people do a canyon turn which uses an excessively steep bank--almost aerobatic, right at the stall--and that's just not necessary. Slow down, use less bank, the turn radius will still be adequately short. More importantly, think ahead and don't get into such a tight a situation.

Cary

I disagree!
Practicing in a safe place is absolutely necessary.
If you ever find yourself trying to get through a pass with a low ceiling and turn a corner to find a wall of "CRAP" previously practicing on the edge of the aerodynamic envelope will probably save your life.

Even a student practicing stalls is flying past the edge of the aerodynamic envelope.

Do it safely and learn your airplane!!!

Agreed. I read it as not necessary ever.

I have had to make the turn.
I am glad I had a good instructor when I got my private ticket, made me practice the canyon turn. He was wise enough to know that I would probably need it some day.

The only way to push the stall envelope is to pull back on the stick and overload the wing or not relax the stick to unload the wing in a turn. I think the crop duster turn can be misleading. Using max cruise speed in ground effect in the field, we have excess zoom reserve in the form of airspeed coming out. We trade this excess speed for altitude to get a better look over obstructions into the next swath run, but mainly we need to slow down increasing the rate of turn. As soon as we dissipate the extra airspeed, we unload the wing and make a steep descending turn back into the field. We keep the wing unloaded in this turn by staying neutral on the stick.

In the canyon/high pass turnaround, our ceiling is not clouds but rather density altitude. In this situation, we have no excess zoom reserve in the form of airspeed. We are at Vy when level just to offset the weight of the airplane. There is no extra pitch up, the part that looks acrobatic. The nose is already pitched up to Vy pitch attitude. We simply turn at sufficient bank to miss the opposite ridge while allowing the nose to pitch down into the valley. We don't want to load the wing by pulling back to stay level. We have given up making this pass. It looks like the last half of the crop duster turn. In the Blu video, he was at lower density altitude with tremendous excess engine thrust for climb. Like the crop duster, he needed to slow down to increase the rate of turn in the narrow canyon. However, when slowed, he unloaded the wing in the steep turn. He relaxed all stick pressure to allow the nose to go down as it was designed to do in a turn.

Cary is right that this type turn need not be practiced by all. We can limit our exposure by staying high. In a landing pattern emergency we can just allow the nose to go down normally if a steep turn becomes necessary. If we all just practiced, at altitude, allowing the nose to go where it wants in a steep turn, safety would be improved. An unloaded wing cannot stall.

In the video with Anarchisto, he was making medium to slightly steep energy management or crop duster turns. At that density altitude, 500' above Boulder, he could have loaded the wing by holding back pressure in the turn. If we are not flying IFR or high enough for the hemispheric rule, is there any need to make high load factor turns? Would making energy management, no load factor, turns when VFR below 3,000' AGL as the normal turn decrease stall/spin accidents?

Not that it couldn't, but so far I haven't had to use "the turn" to extricate myself, because I've recognized when I was in the wrong canyons soon enough that a normal, level, relatively slow airspeed 30 degree banked turn has given me plenty of room. As they say, one can be an old pilot or a bold pilot--and I survived the bold pilot years (also known as my younger and foolisher years) long enough ago that I'd just as soon just be an old pilot, which I am.

Cary

There is no substitute for good judgment. The leading cause for attrition in Navy Flight School was a condition known as "no apparent fear of death." What it meant was the student didn't realize that continuing along it the selected course of action can result in their death, or failing to end an action with the appropriate response due to fear of embarrassment. The last course was typically when to punch out. Guys would continue on long after the aircraft should have transition to a streamlined rock and they to a skydiver. They die failing to punch out. Choosing situations that require maneuvers that are, as many said, at the edge of their aircraft's performance, or entering into situations where they can get into trouble beyond their training can result in unfortunate outcomes.

There is a lot to said by scaring yourself straight. Unfortunately sometimes it is straight into a hillside. After many years of doing surveys into fiords, I developed a level of caution where I would take a lot into account, winds, topography and aircraft performance. This is not to say I always have perfect judgement. The only time my favorite skipper dressed me down and made me do a carpet dance was when I elected to take a failing aircraft back to base after I had made my bailout call on the radio. He was not interested in dead heroes, he said, " you decided the aircraft was bad enough to make a bailout call, BAIL OUT." Now flying in the backcountry is fun. Flying down canyons is fun, the visuals are stunning. Temper it with your skill level. A lot of the aircraft we fly are kind of underpowered. Climb is excess power available to maintain level flight, energy management comes with experience with your platform. I will not fly below a canyon lip if the winds are over certain levels, depending on canyon width. I also carefully balance my climb ability with the amount of energy I have with the aircraft. So flying fast down a canyon will give you greater energy, but also if the winds are up, gust loading affects your aircraft's aerodynamic capability. Lots of trade offs, which experience will govern your actions.

We tend to load up aircraft with drag to perform in backcountry, big tires, lift enhancers, bubble windows. All produce drag, decreasing your ability to perform aerodynamically. Some mask the stall onset. That buffeting your wing gets leading up to stall is a nice indicator your on the edge, airspeed indicators lag, buffet is here and now. Learn your aircraft, some buffet more on one wing than the other, lots of factors involved there, the prop is one, wing incidence is another. As airplanes age, they get bent, it just happens. So in Cessnas for example we adjust the angle of incidence on one wing relative to the other with the eccentric bushings. Learn your plane and don't expect another to be the same. Go in an acro plane and get some spin training. Besides being fun, it is instructive on what it feels like to depart controlled flight at its onset. There are a lot of ways to induce a spin and the stall leading up to it. We did a couple of spins each and every flight in Flight School to hammer it home.

This is a pretty good discussion. That said, I would respectfully point out that there are a Lot of crashed airplanes in many canyons, most having delivered fatalities, and many of them pointed down canyon at impact......they almost made it.

How many botched base to final turns have resulted in fatal accidents simply because of a combination of poor judgement, poor understanding of rudder useage, and flight instructors who think there is NEVER a reason to bank more than 30 degrees? I completed a flight review not long ago, and, asked to do a steep turn, I did so at 60 degrees angle of bank and to ATP standards (okay, a little lucky) and the instructor then asked me to complete a steep turn to 30 degrees angle of bank, since "sixty degrees is way too steep for any practical purposes, and you should NEVER bank more than 30 degrees close to the ground". Really? No wonder people keep screwing themselves into the ground.

Contact flying hit the nail on the head, the airplane could care less what the bank angle is.....load factor is king here.

That's not to suggest super steep turns are a great idea just anywhere, but there are situations where a pilot has got him or her self into a canyon a little too deep, and having both the knowledge and skill set well practiced to extract MAXIMUM performance from that airplane may well save lives.

I was told by many when I started flying the Beaver that it was a real "killer in canyons". Fortunately, I received a really good checkout in the plane, including how to turn it safely, and had a friend in the neighborhood with lots of Beaver time who was willing to share his knowledge. Both my check airman and my other friend scoffed at the "reputation" that some pilots espoused of the airplane.

You can kill yourself in any airplane, and good judgement is an essential trait to stay alive very long in flying. BUT, knowing the capabilities of your airplane and having the skills to extract maximum performance from your plane can save the day when you get in a little too deep.

And, we're all human, which implies our judgement isn't always perfect.

I've known pilots who swore they'd never fly in bad weather.....their "safety net". Then one day,a sudden change in the weather, unforecasted, caught them by surprise.

Learn to fly your airplane well (at altitude) then use your best judgement to avoid traps. But never for a moment believe that you can't get yourself in a bad spot. We're all quite capable of that error.

MTV

Very well said MTV...appreciate the comments....although i do live and fly a lot in IDAHO...my measley 1000+- hours dictate that i am indeed still learning with each flight...and yup, been in a few BAD spots...! thanks for all the info u guys...

Cool video! My first exposure to this concept was in upset recovery training in the RJ. That thing has the same roll rate as an F-18. The instructors would put us in all sort of attitudes, including inverted, and it was amazing how quickly you could upright the aircraft with no stress once you pushed forward to unload the wings. Push forward, unload the wings, and snap roll as needed. Of course, they only let us do this in a sim. Still fun though! And educational.

I was waiting for EZ Flap to get in on this so I could use this video to answer her question, in the Blu canyon turn video, as to why we couldn't just stay in the vertical plane and not go horizontally. In the first "high risk turn" by the jet powered (skinny front) ag plane, we can see that anything acrobatic or near acrobatic in low level work is just too risky. Acrobatics involve full deflection of the controls and timing of the completion. Neither in ag nor in canyon work do we want full deflection of the controls and we don't want to have to precisely time relaxation of controls or full deflection in the opposite direction.

Either the split S or wingover, both acrobatic, would require altitude fudge factor in case the timing wasn't so precise. I never liked the split S because of the horrible speed/load it put on the wing pulling out.

Speed kills in ag and in canyon work. Faster airplanes have excess engine thrust for climb and can stay higher. Most do. With GPS, the faster ag planes can generally race track on big or even two or more fields. Their speed makes up for the time I would lose making big turns in a Pawnee. When the wind comes up and the farmer wants us to keep spraying, we have to go to back and forth work, requiring steeper and therefore slower turns. The faster ag plane can fall off the target at a greater angle and/or fly the downwind portion of the P turn longer. On the high passes, the big engine airplanes just fly over the pass using excess engine thrust for climb. Like Cory says, they should never get into situations a low powered pipeline patrol pilot has to live with. Also, on summer afternoons, ask yourself: Will my engine outclimb and 3,000 fpm downdraft? If not, you may want to consider oregraphic/hydraulic/ridge lift.

You military zoomy,s can nail me on the speed thing. If you keep adding power to make up for the lift lost in a bank, you can maintain altitude in a turn without load factor (on the wing) until you pass out. You have enough excess engine thrust for climb to go almost straight up like a rocket. However, you will have trouble going back the way you came in less than 30 seconds.

My Friend Don from AK sent this to me, Thought this thread might be the best place to put it??

Tell him he needs to push that nose around with rudder to get the crop duster turn completed before the wire. One wing down over the wire doesn't work very well. Too little turn in the start of the turn can cause lots of trouble in the finish. Nice energy management, but scary.

Grassstrippilot wrote:Cool video! My first exposure to this concept was in upset recovery training in the RJ. Push forward, unload the wings, and snap roll as needed. Of course, they only let us do this in a sim. Still fun though! And educational.

Um....you don't want to "snap roll" an RJ, or any other non aerobatic a/c. In fact some owners of aerobatic aircraft avoid snap rolls du to the stresses they put on an airframe.

I HOPE what you're actually referring to is an aileron roll, not a snap.

An inside snap roll involves full up elevator, coincident with full rudder in the desired direction of roll. Outside snap is full down elevator, with full rudder....an e-ticket ride.

MTV