The journey continues as to which plane I will buy next and in another thread the Maules and Bearhawk 4-place have been mentioned several times. I’m checking with my insurance broker I found some requirements that seemed strange to me and figured I would see what would be considered “typical”...

The companies offering insurance on the Maule and the Bearhawk planes are wanting 250 hours of tailwheel time and 25 hours in make / model. Seems excessive especially since I’ve been quoted a great rate for an RV6 requiring nothing more than 10-hours in make / model and no separate tailwheel requirement.

Is the 25/250 a normal thing for these larger taildraggers?

Thx

DJ Balla wrote:The journey continues as to which plane I will buy next and in another thread the Maules and Bearhawk 4-place have been mentioned several times. I’m checking with my insurance broker I found some requirements that seemed strange to me and figured I would see what would be considered “typical”...

The companies offering insurance on the Maule and the Bearhawk planes are wanting 250 hours of tailwheel time and 25 hours in make / model. Seems excessive especially since I’ve been quoted a great rate for an RV6 requiring nothing more than 10-hours in make / model and no separate tailwheel requirement.

Is the 25/250 a normal thing for these larger taildraggers?

Thx

It may depend on your total time, as well. Not sure how that plays into it.

I had 25 TW and 10 in type when I bought my plane. They originally wanted 10 hours of dual in-type, but I couldn’t find a TW CFI that operated a shortwing Piper anywhere near me. I went back to them and told them what they wanted wasn’t happening, but that I could fly 10 hours with a good friend (non-CFI) in-type. They came back and said if I could log those hours as PiC then they were happy with that.

Anyways, it’s definitely a negotiation all they way with insurance companies. Be reasonable and patient and you might see their position change.

-0-

The different hour requirements for different airplanes are somewhat related to the loss rate of those models, as well as the perceived difficulty of operating them. My insurance co. required 10 hours dual in a 182 to cover me, and 10 hours dual in my Champ when I had no tailwheel time. Later, I wanted to rent a different 7-series Citabria and the owner's insurance co. wanted me to have 10 hours in that model.

When I bought my C-180, my insurance co. only required 1 hour dual, but I got 4-5 hours in it because that's what I felt I needed for that transition. The point is, whatever you might negotiate for a minimum, take the dual time you need to be safe.

Insurance companies are interesting. When I went from my 7GCBC to my C180 they didnt even require a checkout. Just told me to go have fun. But now they want 10hrs for me to go to the C206 even though I have a bunch of C172 and C182 time...

A1Skinner wrote:But now they want 10hrs for me to go to the C206 even though I have a bunch of C172 and C182 time...

That is a little odd. Is it because of the extra two seats? I'd think going from 182 to 206 would be a non-issue for them. 172 I could see something just because of the change to complex. I wonder if there's a higher loss rate on 206's, or just more exposure to them due to the extra people space.

I had absolutely no trouble insuring my 182, in fact it was so low I almost called them to ask if they forgot to add something (I'm used to CO auto insurance rates, which are considerably higher than the airplane). I recently bumped the hull value a lot to compensate for the upgrades I'm doing, that came back approved in 20 minutes with only a modest bump in premium. I could have actually taken a lower premium if I reduced the medical coverage, but decided an extra hundred bucks or so was worth the added $5k per person if I ever needed it. I fly a lot of random kids/parents around, things can happen.

Aviation insurance is a weird thing. The math and logic is mysterious to most of us, but it's also a bit fluid and based on the underwriter, and those people can often be reasoned with. It's worth asking questions.

I've never had a claim.
My insurance story is one of the worst you will hear. I was sorta old by the time I got my private and bought my Maule, I was 49. Maules have earned a reputation with insurance companies. They cost 10-15% more to insure.

I had 100 hours TT in 150, 152, 172. ZERO TW time. I buy a M7 235 HP. High performance and complex. $130,000 hull value.

********************$6500******************* only one company would touch me! Plus they required 30 hours of dual instruction. Year 2 $2900, year 3 $1500. Year 4-12 low of $1250 with small increases to get where I am now.

Jeremy AKA (Maules.com) told me to do nothing but landings. Do all different wind conditions. Crosswind, tailwind, quartering winds. Jeremy said do 300 landings, and after that I would probably be ok. At 30 hours I had 285 landings.

I guess Jeremy was right. Knocking on wood. 1800+ in the Maule and I haven't ground looped or turtled it.

I now pay $1550 for $105,000 hull.

Cheers...Rob

Definitely a negotiation.

When I put my 182 on amphibs I ended up with a 15 hour dual requirement which was reasonable but they wanted my instruction to be with a float rated flight instructor with 250+ hours in type AND MODEL. I told them it was ludicrous to expect somebody with amphib 182F time and the difference between a 185/180/182 on amphibs was almost zero. To make matters worse, I was really struggling to find a flight instructor with a float rating so they eventually let me fly my 15 hours with an experienced float guy, then find a CFI for a checkout and sign-off.

Long story short, they reduced their requirements considerably with negotiation.

As others have commented, it's important to consider a couple courses of action when it comes to aircraft insurance.

First, shop a couple of companies. AVEMCO is a direct insurer, whereas all other (that I'm aware of) insurance outfits are brokers, and will shop your policy amongst the other underwriters. So, at the very least, get a quote from AVEMCO and a broker.

Second, once you have a quote, especially if it doesn't make much sense, give the broker a call and see if you can find out why the quote is high, and perhaps negotiate a lower cost. Sometimes, we fail to fill all the blanks unintentionally, and frankly, I think brokers and underwriters fail to consider all the issues. So, at least give them a call and see if they've missed something.

Also, some companies consider additional training, ratings, etc to be worthy of a reduction in policy cost. AVEMCO offers a couple discounts for additional training such as Wings credits, additional rating or endorsement, etc. Call them up and see what you can negotiate in that regard. If they do offer some of those discounts, make sure to take advantage of them, by completing the requisite training during the policy period, and get it recorded with the company.

Bottom line is that some aircraft types don't have a sparkling safety record. Losses and therefore risk is what insurers base a majority of their policy quotes on. So, anything you can do to demonstrate to them that you're trying to operate more safely can help in policy premiums.

MTV

Thx for all the replies! Part of the issue may be that I am a low time pilot at the moment (~110 hours TT between gliders and ASEL) but good to know that things are somewhat negotiable.

Like the rest of the guys said, probably depends on the plane. When I bought a 150 I had less than 100 hours, and the insurance company only required 5 hours. Looks like I am buying a Champ in the next couple of weeks and they are looking for 10 hours in type. On the far end, I have a friend that bought a old BT-17 last year and he needed 250hours tailwheel time before they even started the conversation. Good luck with your search! Buying your first plane is a fun adventure

Pete

I just bought a 170 and only 200 hrs PPL and a light dusting of tw time between cubs/decathlons, my insurance required 10 hrs dual and 5 hrs solo prior to passengers. Some policies quoted only 5 hrs dual but their premium was literally almost $500 higher annually than the policy I chose. Highly recommend shopping around and negotiating details a bit; I got a discount as an AOPA member and member of the 170 association. I used AJ Gallaghers as the broker I finally ended up with and highly recommend.

OregonMaule wrote:I've never had a claim.
My insurance story is one of the worst you will hear. I was sorta old by the time I got my private and bought my Maule, I was 49. Maules have earned a reputation with insurance companies. They cost 10-15% more to insure.

I had 100 hours TT in 150, 152, 172. ZERO TW time. I buy a M7 235 HP. High performance and complex. $130,000 hull value.

********************$6500******************* only one company would touch me! Plus they required 30 hours of dual instruction. Year 2 $2900, year 3 $1500. Year 4-12 low of $1250 with small increases to get where I am now.

Jeremy AKA (Maules.com) told me to do nothing but landings. Do all different wind conditions. Crosswind, tailwind, quartering winds. Jeremy said do 300 landings, and after that I would probably be ok. At 30 hours I had 285 landings.

I guess Jeremy was right. Knocking on wood. 1800+ in the Maule and I haven't ground looped or turtled it.

I now pay $1550 for $105,000 hull.

Cheers...Rob

Tree leaves in the gear? LOL

Sometimes it’s kinda like flying off the first 10 hours on an EAB, at least in AK with AVEMCO. They wanted 10 hours in type but coverage wasn’t any good for the 1st 10 hours anyway. Pretty soon I had my 10, the first 10 was flown off, and I had coverage. Sucks when it has to go that way but sometimes that’s all you can do without a CFI within driving distance.

When a friend was getting an instrument rating in his C180 I flew safety pilot for him. Never logged a landing but did log at least 15-20 hours while he was under the hood. Later, when it came time to buy my 180 I had 250 total, mostly in 182s and 35 tailwheel. Insurance gave me the green light and said I was good to go without any dual. That said I spent lots of time with a couple CFI's and that same buddy in the right seat and lots of x-winds before I felt reliable.

AVEMCO in my case was about triple what I ended up paying. They did send me a hat though.

Insured with Falcon, a broker here in AK. I was required to get 2 hours dual in the Sedan.

My premium went down $137 this year too.

Just went through the Insurance game. Bought a 56 pacer and called around. Found most policies to be around 1K for a 40K hull value. I have 225 hrsTT and I had 48tailwheel but in a Citabria. All they wanted was a checkride for the Pacer.

But, when I went to buy the policy the 1K quotes were for a Tri-Pacer . All brokers had submitted the plane as a tail wheel, the reason for listing the tail wheel hours !

It happened to three of the four companies I had lined up.

Ended up paying 1630 a year with the plane stored outside Ouch

And I cant give advice on that because I asked every time -----"This quote is for a Pacer, not a Tri-Pacer correct ?"

I had the same trouble getting quotes on a C150 taildragger.

I requested a quote for my C120 via AOPA Insurance. I had ~90hrs TT and 40 TW, 0 in type. They just required 1 hour with a CFI. I think I got lucky, or the 120 just doesn't have a lot of requirements. I pay ~$900/yr.

A1Skinner wrote:Insurance companies are interesting. When I went from my 7GCBC to my C180 they didnt even require a checkout. Just told me to go have fun. But now they want 10hrs for me to go to the C206 even though I have a bunch of C172 and C182 time...

Actually, any time there's a transition to a 6 place from a 4 place, there should be some checkout time devoted to flights, especially multiple landings and stalls, at near gross weights at both ends of the CG envelope. You will be surprised at how different a 206 (or any other 6 place) handles under those circumstances, and you don't want to be surprised when you have a load of stuff and passengers! It's a real mistake to just fly off the hours with the CFI in the right seat and nothing in the back.

Cary