whynotfly wrote:Why can't primary trainers such as the C150 or 172 have a "pretend" gear knob or switch on the panel to simulate gear down and up procedures, with the thought that sooner or later that student might be making the transition to a retractable.

That mention reminded me... Jack Tetrick, the CFI that I spend most of my time with for Private, Commercial, and Instrument training, took me flying once in a Pazmany PL-4 that he had purchased from the Taiwanese Air Force, who used 10-12 of them as primary trainers. The PL-4 was a 2-seat side-by-side all-metal airplane roughly the size of an RV-6, but with a T-tail that made stalls rather "interesting". Apparently, spin training was definitely on the agenda for the TAF guys...

It was a pretty cool plane, with some funny "military-style" quirkiness to it, since it was built to "mil-spec" standards for the most part, down to the green canvas-covered seats... IIRC, it had an O-235 engine, and fixed pitch prop. But the strangest feature was that right there on the panel was a "landing gear switch" with "Gear Down" and "Gear Up" placards. Of course, being a fixed-gear airplane, the switch didn't actually raise or lower the gear... But when the switch was placed in the "down" position, there would be a small delay, and then the three "Gear Down" lights would illuminate. And when the switch was placed in the "up" position, the green lights turned amber for a few seconds, then went dark. Even the checklist and POH were in on the "game, calling for the gear to be "raised" after takeoff and "lowered" before landing... Apparently, all this was to ensure the TAF pilots who trained in it developed good gear habits...

UND had a fleet of PA-28-161 cadets with a fake gear system(everything but the retracting part)

IMHO saying "gear down" by rote, when the gear handle does nothing and there's no consequences to a screw-up,would tend to promote BAD habits, not good ones. It could just lead to complacency which could carry over into when you started flying an actual RG aircraft.
I was backseating during a multi-engine training flight when the pilot blew his initial "gear down" call.
His final "centerline check" included a vocal "three green, props to go" but he didn't catch the fact that his gear lights were in fact red.
Luckily his instructor pointed that out to him, but waited until the last minute when a go-around was the preferred option.
Esp by waiting like that, I think the CFI made a lasting impression on the pilot.

I'm curious how many pilots here actually have (and use!) a formal written checklist? (be honest!)
I have a engine start checklist, and a shutdown checklist, but I use a flow procedure for both rather than written lists.
Both takeoff and landing only involve a couple tasks on my relatively simple airplane (C180),
so no written checklist used there either.

hotrod180 wrote:I'm curious how many pilots here actually have (and use!) a formal written checklist? (be honest!)
I have a engine start checklist, and a shutdown checklist, but I use a flow procedure for both rather than written lists.
Both takeoff and landing only involve a couple tasks on my relatively simple airplane (C180),
so no written checklist used there either.

I put together extensive checklists for my airplane a couple of years ago. My use of them depends on what I am doing. If flying on an IFR flight plan, I run through them deliberately and give attention to each and every item. If I'm out playing, I tend to run through only the primary points that I have developed as mental habit. The mindset when out playing demands focus on factors that aren't necessarily checklist material.

Mnemonics are great, and I do use them. I had landed numerous times with my prop in cruise position, then I began using GUMPS religiously and I stopped doing that.

Committing to not using checklists doesn't make sense to me, and relying on checklists alone doesn't make much sense either. My commitment is to improving my process in any way that I can, and checklists are a big part of this.

Checklists are helpful for prioritizing knowledge and keeping potentially important items from fading away from habitual procedure. Checklists also Work against absence of mind, which we all suffer from at times.

hotrod180 wrote:I'm curious how many pilots here actually have (and use!) a formal written checklist? (be honest!)
I have a engine start checklist, and a shutdown checklist, but I use a flow procedure for both rather than written lists.
Both takeoff and landing only involve a couple tasks on my relatively simple airplane (C180),
so no written checklist used there either.

For years, I used a "memorized flow" checklist for everything up through the T210. In fact, I passed my first Part 135 ATCO checkride without a checklist in my hand--the Inspector commented about that in the debriefing, saying that he was surprised that I didn't miss a thing. But my mind was sharp, I was brilliant, and of course I was a superior example of the superior pilot.

That's where I was (still brilliant, albeit creeping up on "older") when I bought my current airplane, a P172D, which is pretty simple, too. My regular CFI, who handles my BFRs and IPCs, has often ragged on me about not using a written checklist, and although I always promised him that I would start doing that, I didn't.

Until recently. In the last few years, I've found myself forgetting things in the "memorized flow", simple things like not aligning the DG to the compass or runway, or setting the altimeter to the current setting, or the transponder to the correct IFR squawk and switching it to "alt"; and more serious things, like not adjusting the trim for take off or setting the flaps for a soft field take off.

The cure: checklists! But not Cessna's, Cary's. I created simplified checklists that I use as reminders--they cover the essentials. I first do everything by memory and flow as I've always done, then check the checklist to make sure I've caught everything. So far, so good.

I have a pre-start with a dozen items (the passenger briefing part has 9 sub-items); a pre-taxi with 5 items; a pre-take-off with a dozen items (the run-up item has 6 sub-items); and pre-landing with 10 items (I use that before I get within 5 miles or so of the pattern). All of these are on my iPad Mini on the yoke, as pages of a document.

But I don't use a written checklist close to the airport or in the pattern. Looking down at a checklist while coming close to an airport or in the pattern is a recipe for a mid-air, and I'd just as soon die in my sleep, not in some smoking hole after taking out another airplane. I use GUMPS pretty religiously, although the U isn't necessary in my airplane. The G covers checking the fuel selector again and confirming that I've pulled the fuel pump and carb heat on (which I've already done in my pre-landing checklist), and the rest is the standard mixture (I usually have already adjusted the mixture), prop (I usually wait on the prop until I've slowed to 80 mph), and seatbelts. I am not a fan of acronyms and mnemonics, so GUMPS is the only one I use.

Cary

Moody Aviation is a premier training center for missionary pilot. The school uses checklists for just about everything. But, in the air they used to use a box with lights and switches mounted on the glare shield. Dunno if they still do that. Every switch position and light had meaning in the memorized checklists. It sounds complicated, but it's really sublime. They train and fly into really challenging strips, always with eyes outside (except for a peek into the cockpit at airspeeds etc. I'm really impressed with their students, their flying, and their innovative instructors. I don't have a picture of their checklist box, but it's easy to imagine. Six to eight switches with a light up above each. When they use 'em as a checklist they move the switches and the switch position and light status (on or off) gives tactile feedback to them as they look and touch each item on the list. Switch position and meaning flow with the situation. Takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, approach, Go Around, Missed Approach, landing, etc.

PapernScissors wrote:Moody Aviation is a premier training center for missionary pilot. The school uses checklists for just about everything. But, in the air they used to use a box with lights and switches mounted on the glare shield. Dunno if they still do that. Every switch position and light had meaning in the memorized checklists. It sounds complicated, but it's really sublime. They train and fly into really challenging strips, always with eyes outside (except for a peek into the cockpit at airspeeds etc. I'm really impressed with their students, their flying, and their innovative instructors. I don't have a picture of their checklist box, but it's easy to imagine. Six to eight switches with a light up above each. When they use 'em as a checklist they move the switches and the switch position and light status (on or off) gives tactile feedback to them as they look and touch each item on the list. Switch position and meaning flow with the situation. Takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, approach, Go Around, Missed Approach, landing, etc.

Is this the box you're describing (above the audio panel)?



If so, I'm curious how it is used for different checklists.

Cary

Very interesting thread.

I'm just leaving the school environment, with multiple detailed checklists, and migrating to my own plane that has all checklists on one ratty old two-sided plasticized piece of paper that is about half the size of a regular sheet of paper. The font is small and compared to the school checklist it is pretty meagre in detail.

I'm thinking of putting some checklists on the Ipad. Larger font, with an on/off radio button for each item on the checklist.

Has anybody else designed such a thing, or does anyone else use their Ipad for checklists?

Allan

albravo wrote:Very interesting thread.

I'm just leaving the school environment, with multiple detailed checklists, and migrating to my own plane that has all checklists on one ratty old two-sided plasticized piece of paper that is about half the size of a regular sheet of paper. The font is small and compared to the school checklist it is pretty meagre in detail.

I'm thinking of putting some checklists on the Ipad. Larger font, with an on/off radio button for each item on the checklist.

Has anybody else designed such a thing, or does anyone else use their Ipad for checklists?

Allan

I have all of my checklists loaded in to my iPad. No checkboxes or anything, just a list.

albravo wrote:Very interesting thread.

I'm just leaving the school environment, with multiple detailed checklists, and migrating to my own plane that has all checklists on one ratty old two-sided plasticized piece of paper that is about half the size of a regular sheet of paper. The font is small and compared to the school checklist it is pretty meagre in detail.

I'm thinking of putting some checklists on the Ipad. Larger font, with an on/off radio button for each item on the checklist.

Has anybody else designed such a thing, or does anyone else use their Ipad for checklists?

Allan

You have a 796 to as well right? You can make up checklists and using a SD card you can put them on your GPS. then you can just pull them up on there ad check them off.

hotrod180 wrote:I'm curious how many pilots here actually have (and use!) a formal written checklist? (be honest!)
I have a engine start checklist, and a shutdown checklist, but I use a flow procedure for both rather than written lists.
Both takeoff and landing only involve a couple tasks on my relatively simple airplane (C180),
so no written checklist used there either.

Guilty as charged. No written lists for for 15 years or so. Pneumonics for me. After seeing a friend in an f-16 ready t go to war with no checklist.... it convinced me there was a simpler soulution.

Piper put them on the dash on some airplanes. Not an even fair excuse, taking off and landing many times a day can dilute extensive checklist use. A good pilot can use a checklist and still be loose and expecting the engine to quit. I was too disorganized to do the former so I concentrated on the latter.

I fly a Bonanza and use no checklist. There's simply no need.

Have and use a checklist please. Why, because they work is simply the reason. Your friend who flew a F-16 had and used a checklist. It was printed and sounds like ROTE learned too. Actually a fair number of checklists for single-pilot operation require the pilot to learn the checklist in addition to using it, it is actually a FAR to use and have a checklist for a lot of folks.

There is no reason you can not use a checklist unless you run a real shit show in your cockpit, then I would suggest learning some basic CRM. There is always time, even in an emergency, and most operators and planes have very few actions that are required to be done right now.

It is one of the cheapest and simplest safety devices you have in all aviation, bet many folks spend more on safety gear than a decent used car, but refuse to use a checklist(which you already have in your AFM). There are a lot of reasons to bend metal or kill yourself but not having a checklist is not one of them.

Some one told me switchalogy in a cockpit is an always failing thing. Most pilots have one switch out of place on almost every flight. Using that checklist can help reduce that occurring.

"Yeah so I was flying along all real cool like and intercepted the final approach course and blah, blah, blah. Then I heard this noise and it all happened."

Did you have a current BFR, medicinal, annual, charts, and use a checklist?"

"No"

The military and aviation are very big on standardization, but life is ripe with interesting characters. I can't pass up the chance to tell a Ronnie Westmoreland checklist story.

My stick, Captain Edelman and Lieutenants Cannon and myself, were very lucky to get Westmoreland in primary helicopter school at Ft. Walters. He was the best instructor I ever met in my fifty nine years in aviation.

I expect he looked over the TH-55 he would be using, but he had a way of orientation training that was fast and effective.

The first day he sent the three of us out to preflight. Edelman started reading from the twenty or so page preflight checklist while Cannon and I started checking things. We were on number seven or so when Westmoreland walked up with the cup of coffee that was always in his hand. "How come the rotor ain't turning," he said, "Get in Captain. Let's go."

It took Captain Edelman longer than me to see what a jewel we had drawn, but we were 1, 2, and 3 to solo and were all in the top ten percent of the class. Nor were we unique for Westmoreland's students, including Vietnamese students.

It takes all kinds, even in a highly regulated world.

Scolopax wrote:

albravo wrote:Very interesting thread.

I'm just leaving the school environment, with multiple detailed checklists, and migrating to my own plane that has all checklists on one ratty old two-sided plasticized piece of paper that is about half the size of a regular sheet of paper. The font is small and compared to the school checklist it is pretty meagre in detail.

I'm thinking of putting some checklists on the Ipad. Larger font, with an on/off radio button for each item on the checklist.

Has anybody else designed such a thing, or does anyone else use their Ipad for checklists?

Allan

I have all of my checklists loaded in to my iPad. No checkboxes or anything, just a list.

Me too.

Cary

.

A1Skinner wrote:You have a 796 to as well right? You can make up checklists and using a SD card you can put them on your GPS. then you can just pull them up on there ad check them off.

That right there is why I love this site. Thanks David, that is exactly what I'll do.

We took delivery a week ago. I'm trying to squeeze out the last few hours of my PPL so I've been watching my wife's check out and spending a little time in the back seat watching. It is pretty awesome. I'm really pleased with the way it turned out.

albravo wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:You have a 796 to as well right? You can make up checklists and using a SD card you can put them on your GPS. then you can just pull them up on there ad check them off.

That right there is why I love this site. Thanks David, that is exactly what I'll do.

We took delivery a week ago. I'm trying to squeeze out the last few hours of my PPL so I've been watching my wife's check out and spending a little time in the back seat watching. It is pretty awesome. I'm really pleased with the way it turned out.

Glad to help Allan. They work good for when I actually use them. I basically just copied the checklists out of the POH and it seperated them nicely. Here's a couple pictures showing a couple of the screens. I should make another one for emergencies.



Also glad to hear you are getting some time in the plane!