2 dead today here in Perth.

"Australia Day" celebrations finish up with a massive fireworks display over the river, which draws a huge crowd. There were thousands already positioned for a good view, picnics, kids etc...



Video footage
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/australia-day-plane-crashes-into-swan-river/news-story/760d5746febf7985ab1cb9d033feeece

More video
http://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/plane-crashes-into-swan-river-in-perth-just-hours-before-australia-day-skyworks/news-story/1bdc517474cc12aa58282df07d14ad98

Don't know how long those news links will work, "Perth river plane crash" on Google will find plenty of pages in any case.

(Ok, back to lurking!)

It appears very much like an attempt to end a turning dive by pulling back on the stick before first bringing the down wing up with mostly rudder. Because of adverse yaw, aileron alone will aggravate the attempt to bring the down wing up and even stall the down wing. Old guys call it, "aileron going out " or "graveyard spiral. "

This is why authorities teach avoidance of maneuvering flight and why I teach Dutch Rolls to 45 degree banks.

May God help family and loved ones.

Mallard (sorry had Albatross on the brain), not too many experienced guys around that fly those. This one was privately owned. Last video in last link just shows a level 180 turn and then a descending turn stall. Wind, speed, experience....

Report was 42C temp that day, and that aircraft was downwind for a turn-to-final water landing, and trying to keep things tight to remain in the display "box".

Looks like a Mallard, not an Albatross to me. So sad. Condolences to the family and friends of those lost.

I can't express adequately how uncomfortable it makes me feel, to watch a developing situation in which I can see where it starts to go badly--I just want to reach out and say, "Don't do that!", even when I'm watching a video. The only time I've seen that in person was at Jeffco at an airshow about 20 years ago, when an F86 pilot misjudged his altitude pulling out of a loop and hit the ground. As he was on the vertical downline, I said to myself, "he isn't going to make it!"

Very sad.

Cary

contactflying wrote:It appears very much like an attempt to end a turning dive by pulling back on the stick before first bringing the down wing up with mostly rudder. Because of adverse yaw, aileron alone will aggravate the attempt to bring the down wing up and even stall the down wing. Old guys call it, "aileron going out " or "graveyard spiral. "

By all appearances, that must be the cause. The age old "stall / spin on turn to finals".

Too much control input at low airspeed, forcing the lower / inside wing into a stall. This kind of situation is normally aggravated by the pilot applying full opposite aileron after the stall has begun.

The culprit is normally lack of airspeed, plain and simple. Aggressive maneuvering close to the ground (water) is an aggravating factor, because there's no room for error.

What an awful result.

Yes. Too aggressive with aileron; not aggressive enough with rudder. In aggressive turns to target, we need to bank steeply early in the turn so as to have more time and comfort getting the wing level before pulling out , crossing wires and obstacles, and landing. Wind management so that this turn is made in head or cross wind is very helpful.

Cary wrote:I can't express adequately how uncomfortable it makes me feel, to watch a developing situation in which I can see where it starts to go badly--I just want to reach out and say, "Don't do that!", even when I'm watching a video. The only time I've seen that in person was at Jeffco at an airshow about 20 years ago, when an F86 pilot misjudged his altitude pulling out of a loop and hit the ground. As he was on the vertical downline, I said to myself, "he isn't going to make it!"

Very sad.

Cary

I was at Jeffco for that one too, down on that end of the field. You could have heard a pin drop at that place for the next minute or so while the crowd tried to process whether it was one of those "mock bomb drop" effects, or if he really just bought it. I still remember that fireball vividly to this day. I'm just glad he went into an open field (basically on top of the subterranean part of the Ball Aerospace plant) instead of any of the numerous buildings or housing areas around there, it could have been much worse.

My heart goes out to all involved each time I see or hear of one of these.

That said, due to small print and lack of contrast on my system, I would like to ask if anyone else thinks there is NO rudder in a couple of the early - still vertical photos?

Agree with Contact -

wannabe wrote:My heart goes out to all involved each time I see or hear of one of these.

That said, due to small print and lack of contrast on my system, I would like to ask if anyone else thinks there is NO rudder in a couple of the early - still vertical photos?

Agree with Contact -

My reaction was that there was inadequate rudder initially, followed by too much rudder turning a slip into a skid.

Cary

Cary could be correct. For some reason the bank increased to 90 degrees and the nose had to go further down, finally vertical, just before entering the water. I think he was still going downwind. He seemed to desire a more upwind or at least crosswind touchdown. Cary and I think his rate of turn was insufficient due to not having enough rudder.

The bank increased because :
He increased it with aileron and inadequate rudder. A slip.
He pulled back on the stick before leveling the wing (much rudder would have to be used to level the wings. ) Pulling back before leveling the wing will cause increased bank and often stall. A graveyard spiral.
He tried to level the wings with aileron and inadequate rudder. The adverse yaw slowed that wing and the down aileron increased the angle of attack of that wing. An aileron caused skid and stall. The aileron went out.
He tried to push the nose around with rudder way too late. A rudder caused skid.

Cary's go around much earlier or my steep descending turn while allowing the nose to go down much earlier and wings level before pulling up was needed here.

Downwind turns to final require much steeper banks to intercept final than upwind or no wind turns to final. Wind management rather than arbitrary left turns would have made this a non-event by decreasing ground speed and thus the amount of bank necessary to acquire the target.