Hi everyone.
I’ve just gotten my first hours dual in the Wagon. What a gorgeous plane. I’m in love. I have so much to learn but really think the whole process of going to be really rewarding. My 3 points feel pretty solid, but I’m having some real difficulty planting my wheel landings. I wanted to run some technique by the community here and see your thoughts. My instructor was having me fly shallow glide path over the numbers at 90 mph and about 10 swipes nose down trim (from hands off 500 from decent) to hold it off. We were strictly attitude flying and airspeed indicator was covered up most of the time but I did sneak a glance just to get an idea. There were some winds everyday which made it even more of a bear to handle as well. I was having some real difficulty keeping the plane from bouncing. The idea was to pin the airplane on the ground with forward pressure and power unchanged. Once directional stability was established, power was chopped and tail was kept up as we slowed. It felt like I had soo much airspeed. Slowing the vertical speed and timing the roll-on was super tough without tapping a tire and immediately flying again. Plus, I was using about 2000-3000’ of runway. This was on small tires the first few days. What a beast... I was seriously have some troubles. In a Supercub is typically fly the same speed as my three point, round out, and push forward just after the mains touched but I was told the tail of the Wagon is too heavy for this procedure. Does anyone have words of wisdom?

I should say that the instructor is a very skilled pilot and knows his wagon very well. Has couple thousand hours in them. I’m sure he could land it short on wheels if he needed to.

ington6 wrote:In a Supercub is typically fly the same speed as my three point, round out, and push forward just after the mains touched but I was told the tail of the Wagon is too heavy for this procedure. Does anyone have words of wisdom?

Change that procedure from "just after the mains touch" to "just as the mains touch" and you have described a good wheel landing technique for most tailwheel planes. Spring gear and a heavy plane requires better timing but it's the same general technique. I just think you're too fast. Heavy plane + wing still flying + spring gear = bounce. Springs are a simple thing, they can only rebound the amount of energy you store in them. Reduce the energy you have prior to "loading them" on the landing - slow down and try to anticipate when the mains are going to squeak on, pin it with forward pressure as they do. If you wait to hear or feel the squeak, you'll likely bounce a bit. The force, you must use. Once the weight is fully on the mains, not the wing, you can use brakes and that forward pressure will transition smoothly to back pressure. Let the tail down smoothly by balancing brakes and elevator. Reducing flaps at touchdown transitions weight from wings to wheels much faster but can significantly increase pilot workload during a critical and touchy phase so maybe wait a until you're a little more comfortable to throw that in.

Smoothness might not come fast but 90mph aint helping nobody.

ington6 wrote:Hi everyone.
I’ve just gotten my first 20 hours dual in the Wagon. What a gorgeous plane. I’m in love. I have so much to learn but really think the whole process of going to be really rewarding. My 3 points feel pretty solid, but I’m having some real difficulty planting my wheel landings. I wanted to run some technique by the community here and see your thoughts. My instructor was having me fly shallow glide path over the numbers at 90 mph and about 10 swipes nose down trim to hold it off. We were strictly attitude flying and airspeed indicator was covered up most of the time but I did sneak a glance just to get an idea. There were some winds everyday which made it even more of a bear to handle as

well. I was having some real difficulty keeping the plane from bouncing. The idea was to pin the airplane on the ground with forward pressure and power unchanged. Once directional stability was established, power was chopped and tail was kept up as we slowed. It felt like I had soo much airspeed. Slowing the vertical speed and timing the roll-on was super tough without tapping a tire and immediately flying again. Plus, I was using about 2000-3000’ of runway. This was on 8.00s the first few days and then my fifth day was on GY 26s at 26 psi. What a beast... I was seriously have some troubles. In a Supercub is typically fly the same speed as my three point, round out, and push forward just after the mains touched but I was told the tail of the Wagon is too heavy for this procedure. Does anyone have words of wisdom?

First, find a different instructor!!!

Your text highlighted in red is correct. Fly a wheel landing in the Cessna pretty much like you would a three point.

90 mph is obscenely fast!! Fly the approach MUCH slower....again, pretty much same speed as three point. 65 to 70 is on the high end. Work your way to the slower end.

Touch with the tailwheel an inch or two off the ground, then roll it up on the mains, and kill the power. The idea is to bleed as much energy off BEFORE you touch the ground as possible. Extra energy = bounce. Spring gear does that.


It does help to roll in some nose down trim, and carry a bit of power, but "10 swipes of nose down trim"??? Good grief, how are you able to hold that much back pressure? I use two to three swipes of nose down trim.

The advice your "instructor" is giving is common in people who haven't flown these planes much, and who are scared of them. Lose that instructor and find someone who actually knows how to fly one. I realize that's harsh, but believe me, you'll continue to be nervous about the plane unless you get a good handle on it, and that person isn't getting you there.

MTV

I was writing as Asa posted. As you can see, we're saying pretty much the same thing. Way too fast on final. When I talk about final speed, I'm talking over the numbers, BTW.

Slow it down, and try to find someone with some actual experience in these things.

MTV

Yup. What these guys said.
Esp MTV. Find a new instructor.
When I do Tailwheel instruction, the airspeed for either type of landing approach is the same. Same approach, same everything.
I teach two kinds of wheelies: Tail low like MTV described and flat attitude, drive it on. Student sees right away what Asa is describing with spring energy dissipation. This also gives them plenty of practice with aborted landings and bounce recoveries.
To me, that is one of the most important parts of the TW checkout: when to recognize what is savable, and what is going to bend an airplane if continued.
Average 10 hours in Cub types and 15 in Cessna's.
Tom

MTV is spot on! Get a new instructor who knows how to fly the 180/185.

Get rid of the energy before touchdown. I like wheel landings as MTV states, slow, with the tailwheel a couple inches above the runway.

Slow down!

MW

....

Exactly what Mike is saying… 90 miles an hour on final is way too fast, period. Try 60 miles an hour lol.

Also, using exact numbers like “10 spins of the wheel“ is silly as trim is a factor of how the airplane is loaded.

Moreover, skywagon‘s are all so different depending on how they are set up. When we modify these birds; back seats removed, gut interiors, Batteries up front, etc. etc. etc., the CG sneaks forward. In my bird, even with the trim all the way in the back of the box, the nose still drops on a power off high final approach. If I roll the wheel 10 swipes forward from neutral there’s no way I could keep the plane from kissing the dirt. This was the primary reason I got rid of my three blade MT and went back to a two blade.

Remember, energy equals mass times velocity squared, so the faster we are going, the longer it takes to stop… and in the simplest form, the mission of the “landing“ is to stop the airplane. So why bring all the extra energy to the party???

Perhaps these techniques are better in a bonanza?

Regardless, The hardest part of being a student is to distill what’s important and what’s not. Every instructor has his or her bailiwick… stuff they fixate on and think is the most important.

As students, we should just listen, and then do what you’re doing, which is to try to synthesize what’s important and what’s not. Take what works for you away, and don’t count the other stuff as gospel.

Good discussion!

What has been said is excellent. I would add a technique that gives you enough time with the speeds we are all talking about as well. On a long runway with full flaps and the same approach for three point or wheel landing, just before touchdown add quite a bit of power and level the fuselage to "hover taxi" in low ground effect at almost touchdown speed all the way to the last turnoff and then reduce power to land or add power to go around. Yes, slow flight Out of Ground Effect is excellent practice as well. It is, however, much faster than we actually want to be in order to land safely. Staying in low ground effect as default for takeoff is also helpful, both energy wise and to get comfortable with low ground effect level fuselage flight. The objective here is to accelerate quickly, however.

As everyone says, 90 is bent tin and skin speed. Heavy airplanes will fly slow, just with a bit more power/pitch to touchdown. The round out and hold off is what gives the 180 the tough to land reputation. Use power/pitch instead of the round out and hold off. Don't worry about engine failure practice. It is amazingly the same as a good power/pitch approach if you look outside at the apparent rate of closure. I had thirteen of those. In either case, getting slowed down at the bottom is the safer technique.

I practice what Contact says on a routine basis. One thing I'll add is as you track the centerline, looking down the runway it gives you great sense of alignment and where the nose is headed. It's a great precursor to a good wheel landing and keeping the fuselage aligned with the centerline.

MW

You said 90?? Fire that fella!!! Wow!

AKT

Way too fast, you are not bouncing the plane is just returning to flight as the tail lowers and AOA increases. Read up on MAF technique. DENNY

I had to log in just to pile on: 90mph is absolutely bonkers! What in the world??

One other thought that hasn't been mentioned yet: Initially, a lot of folks struggle with centerline and alignment when first transitioning to a side by side seating plane, where the pilot doesn't sit precisely on centerline.

Simple solution: Don't sweat it. Put the centerline right between the rudder pedals on your side. Worst case, you're going to be a foot or so off centerline. Believe me, if you can track within a foot of centerline consistently, you're good to go.

This process makes it easier to visualize what's "straight" prior to touchdown.

MTV

mtv wrote: First, find a different instructor!!! .....

What he said.

There's no substitute for actual flight instruction,
but Bill White of insurance fame wrote an article many years ago about "the MAF technique" for wheel landing the 180/185.
Well worth googling up and reading in it's entirety, but here's the essence of it:



You can tweak this technique as you gain experience, but this works pretty well as a starting point.

90 mph is hilarious and dangerous. Find a new instructor as others have suggested. I find slower approach speeds with power provide far more stable and easy wheel landings. I would also practice on a nice perfectly smooth grass field airport at first. This makes the wheel landings a little easier. I prefer to be slow 60 mph or less and dirty (40 degrees flaps). I carry power to arrest the decent rate. The trick is to to start the flare to a wings level position. I like to let the tail get just slightly low as the mains touch the ground and then apply forward yoke pressure or just release the back pressure if you are trimmed forward. In no wind conditions the wheel landings have a very predicable course. This changes in gusty crosswind conditions where there will be a lot of dancing and timing involved but the sample principles apply. Power is very useful because it allows the airplane more time to stabilize in ground effect. I prefer wheeling over 3 points but it is important to be proficient at both.


Josh

Guys have given excellent advise but one thing I will add is that I bought a 210 in NY years ago and insurance said I had to fly with an instructor to get checked out. after I took off and landed he said this is a nice plane and that he had never been in a 210 before. Ha Sounds like your instructor may be in the same shoes. I do come over the fence at 90 in my Lancair Legacy.

Only thing I have to add is, keep just enough nose down trim so you have to use a little back pressure on the yoke. As the wheels touch you just relax the back pressure, which will decrease angle of attack and avoid a bounce. I think MTV has recommended this in the past, and it really unlocked the 180 wheel landing for me.

Not to pile on as everyone has already commented - but really - you should look into a different instructor. 90 over the numbers is very fast and not advised. Are you sure that was not 90 abeam the numbers? If he is truly teaching you to do a wheel landing with a flat approach and at 90 OVER the numbers you should look for a new instructor. There are a few different methods - with some differences here and there - but none of them include being that fast.

Fly the final like your cub but just a tad faster. CFI’s that are uncomfortable like the extra energy so they can catch you. Probably really likes the speed if he’s covering the AS indicator. Sky wagons are goat haulers and a great one at that. Very forgiving. Don’t be BS’d.

The nice thing about Utah is you can find a rural road and fly down the road about 10’ off the ground in slow flight, great for rudder and power inputs to keep it on line and maintain the 10’ AGL. My instructor taught me to do this, and I did it religiously all through my training, still do it now. Find your slow fight speed with 50% flaps and then find a LONG straight road. My definition of slow flight is about 1.1 to 1.15 Vso. Great practice.