I practiced on runway 27 today, terrain is higher goes downhill to the runway, first exit is at about 600ft.
Couple of months ago I practiced and 6 out of six tries I made it to the first exit, I had 40 gallons and me 170 puounds a friend about 200 pounds wind calm.

Today wind calm, 67 gallons me 170 pounds, my friend 170 also .
Out of 5 tries only once I made it and was ugly.
Was approaching at 60mph was doing short patterns and on final will be power off keeping 60 to the flare, the plane will sink fast and with full yoke aft will hit hard and bounce., a couple I tried with power and I just floated a bit.
Just didnt have the timing to do a steady approach with power on and slow speed, controlling alt with power.
I was finding myself high so will cut power on final and glide it to the runway.

Very fustrated
I dont want to blame the extra weight of the fuel.Does it make a that much difference?
It was me probably, need to keep practising and learning.
Will post a couple of videos so you guys can critic and advice .

If the air is hotter or more humid it will be thinner. With thinner air your airspeed will read the same even though your actual ground speed will be higher. Maybe that is a contributing factor. The extra weight won't help either. All you can do is keep practicing!

I don't fly a Cessna, so I cannot comment on your particular aircraft. However, on my aircraft, my take-off roll is increased by about 60' by adding a 150 lb passenger in the back seat. My sink rate is also increased with the passenger, and thus my landing speed needs to be slightly higher to keep the sink rate the same as if I had no passenger.

Let 10#'s out of your tires.

This is the only time I made it and wasnt smooth at all

This pattern I widened to make time for the plane to leave the runway.
Then on final although I was coming slow didnt make it.
Looking at the wind sock seems to be Im having a bit of tailwind and croswind.
Critics are welcomed

[quote="motoadve"]This is the only time I made it and wasnt smooth at all

I am no bush pilot expert. However, I have demonstrated and achieved very short landings as you are trying to perfect. Don't be too hard on yourself, and dont try to impress passengers or people who may be watching on the ground.

I have no idea what model Cessna you are flying. The bulk of my flying has been in Cessna 150's, which can be flown and demonstrate 150ft landing rolls. I became intimate with the slow flight characteristics and flying speeds. also, took the advise of my instructor/mentor to stick to the basics as i was taught.

IMHO, in min 1:47 of the video as you roll from downwind to base leg you are too low. maybe 300 ft AGL. unless you were trying to compensate for wind from the North, i would suggest extending your base leg out a little further and squaring up your turns. It seems as if you were carrying a little extra air speed and was too low/shallow for your flare/ touchdown. Its important to have a stabilized approach and speed before turning final.

Here is how i would do it in a C-150. Establish 70MPH indicated, 10 degrees flaps 500-600ft AGL. Upon turning final, i would put in 20 degrees flaps, and 65 MPH indicated. As i got near the road shown in front of the runway 27 in the video i would plan on 300 ft AGL. I got the runway made, FULL flaps, into a side slip and 60 MPH indicated to the intended landing spot. nose low, side slip gives me relative sharp decent, without increase in airspeed. trim for slightly nose high, kick out the slip, stabilize as the airspeed is decreasing as you fly to the runway, possibly flying on verge of stall at 50AGL to the runway. Trim, FLARE, FLARE and gently place wheels firmly on the runway.
Apply heavy to moderate brakes.
set up your pattern, stabilize and stick to the basics. Dont try and emulate bush flying videos.

You can do it! just be patient and Keep it SIMPLE! I hope this helps.

Plane is a 182 with Horton and VGs.
When at 60mph on final I reduce power to loose altitude , but at the same time without wanting it , the nose drops and I gain speed.

So when coming higher pitching for speed and throttle for alt, how do I reduce power and alttitude without gaining speed when the nose drops?

motoadve wrote:was doing short patterns and on final will be power off keeping 60 to the flare...Just didnt have the timing to do a steady approach with power on and slow speed, controlling alt with power. I was finding myself high so will cut power on final and glide it to the runway.

I dont want to blame the extra weight of the fuel.Does it make a that much difference? It was me probably, need to keep practising and learning. Will post a couple of videos so you guys can critic and advice .

Just my .02 worth based on your video. Let me start with the caveat that the video perception may be misleading a bit. Having said that the first thing I noticed is that did not appear to be a short / close pattern in my book, nor was it done with power at idle on final. Again, it may be misleading in the video, but it does not appear that if you lost the engine on base or even on long final you would have been able to make the runway. As one who flies radial engines fairly routinely I am a big proponent of being within gliding distance anytime your are in the pattern. I practice my patterns so that once I am abeam the numbers at pattern altitude I can pull the throttle to idle and hit a given point on those numbers without touching the throttle again. By a given spot I mean putting the left tire in the top circle of the 3 on 36 or something along those lines. As you get proficient with that, make the target even smaller. If you are too high on final, slip it. If you are too fast, add flaps or increase pitch angle. If you are to low...you have screwed up, add throttle and practice some more.

Here is an example of an overhead approach...not the same as what you were flying, but the principle in what I have been saying is the same. In the break I slowly pull the throttle to idle and roll out on downwind...it remains at idle through the touchdown. The entire pattern from the break point to landing is done by flying the wing in this example. We touchdown just past the numbers and I still have her stopped in less than 1,500 feet from the displaced threshold with minimal braking. If I lost the engine at any time I just continue as normal with the landing. When flown properly, the wing is done flying at the same time the wheels touch the ground so the only limit in stopping distance is braking effectiveness.



Once you learn to fly the wing without reliance on the power plant, you can make the aircraft do whatever you want it to do and the throttle becomes just an additional tool in the bag of tricks...just ask Bob Hoover. Remember, the wing is what makes the aircraft fly and dictates its performance capabilities...the engine simply enhances the airspeed needed by the wing to fly. It takes practice, but once you have it down you will find that you can be very accurate with your touchdown and airspeeds on a routine basis. Accuracy and speed are the keys to a short landing...or any good landing for that matter. Aim small, miss small. Once you have this skill mastered, making landings while dragging it in on the backside of the power curve become easy as you know just how the wing is going to respond when you reduce the throttle.

Again, just my .02 worth...others may have a different / additional opinion.

Very nice video, congrats

motoadve wrote:Plane is a 182 with Horton and VGs.
When at 60mph on final I reduce power to loose altitude , but at the same time without wanting it , the nose drops and I gain speed.

So when coming higher pitching for speed and throttle for alt, how do I reduce power and alttitude without gaining speed when the nose drops?

Ok, so 60 MPH on final.....flaps, adjust trim. Use a combination of pitch and power to make the airplane track down to flare at your desired airspeed. You should not need power on, once you have the field made on final. You should have a nose low attitude, maintaining your airspeed. I like to slip.

add some nose up trim as comfortable with while nose low. as you transition into the flare..you should already be bleeding airspeed as you approach flare to touchdown in ground effect. timing your stall with a rounded flare and planting the wheels.

stable airspeed and track are key.

lownslow79 wrote:Ok, so 60 MPH on final.....flaps, adjust trim.

Be careful trying to fly a C-182 like a C-150...the principles are the same, but they handle differently at the same speeds. The 182 is a much heavier aircraft than the 150 and has a different wing loading...16 lbs / ft^2 as opposed to 10 lbs / ft^2...and consequently has a stall speed of approximately 10 knots more. Vso for a stock wing C-182 (depending on model) is about 50 kts or about 58 MPH...flying final at 60 mph can get you in trouble in a hurry... especially with any gusting winds.

As I mentioned previously...learn to fly the wing.

motoadve wrote:Plane is a 182 with Horton and VGs.
When at 60mph on final I reduce power to loose altitude , but at the same time without wanting it , the nose drops and I gain speed.

So when coming higher pitching for speed and throttle for alt, how do I reduce power and alttitude without gaining speed when the nose drops?

That's not a good question. If you're still in the air, you WILL gain speed when the nose drops. I've been doing this for almost 50 years*, so listen carefully. That's a classic balance problem. This can happen when there are two people up front and nothing in the back. Usually the people are heavier that what you stated, and the obvious result is that the airplane's c.g. is too far forward. You and your passenger are not enough of a moment on the front seat to put you outside of the forward c.g. limit, but you're definitely front-heavy on the balance.

The tendency to drop the nose at very low speed / low power is likely exacerbated by your Horton cuff. You're down at the speed where the wing and elevator would be starting to really lose their lift, except that your wing has the cuff, and your elevator doesn't. So, the elevator loses a little more downforce than the wing loses lift, and over she goes. Your elevator apparently had enough airflow to manage the job when it had the propeller wash. Then, you cut the power, and I'm assuming that full deflection of the elevator wasn't enough to keep it level after the power was cut. If this is the problem, then the solution is to move your c.g. farther back. Throw some weight in the baggage compartment, or make your passenger sit in the back seat.

Do the math for a proper w&b, or find a w&b calculator on the web that shows the c.g. envelope. There are a bunch of them out there, but you will need to find one that is a very close match for your plane (year, empty weight, empty balance). Here's a couple of examples that show what I'm talking about.
http://www.cascadeflyers.com/weightbalance/c182.html
http://home.roadrunner.com/~trumpetb/alph/wb182R.html


* almost 50 years of giving advice on subjects I know very little about.

My 206s have STOL mods and very light when empty but up to 1300 lbs heavier on landing if we have to bring the jumpers back down. Most of our landings are empty but I have to train my pilots to understand that the aircraft will not want to slow down or come down with a load on. When heavy landing VRef speeds may only be 5 mph faster but it is surprising how hard it is to slow from 80mph base turn to 70 on final and 60 over the fence while maintaining the correct approach angle. The extra 5 mph and higher weight increase the rolling deceleration and require more braking but when prepared for it is not that much harder to hit the touch down zone.

You are right, full deflection of the elevator wasn't enough .
Good advice on the weight in the back, also like to W&B calculators, thanks.

Well, emboldened by that lucky guess, I'm going to go out on a limb and give you some unsolicited advice. It's very similar to the message I'm hearing from lowflybye and lownslow79.

I've watched several videos that you have uploaded now, and in every single one of them, I think you are coming in far too shallow (as in dangerously shallow). In your quest for short landings, you're at fourth down and inches from stalling, and dragging it in way too low over the terrain for a mile. I'll admit that it takes a bit of skill to achieve that, but I think it should be left in the bag of tricks for unusual situations, not used as standard operating procedure.

Have you ever landed at an airport that has a VASI, PAPI, etc.? The usual glide slope for those is 3 degrees, and you get the red over red signal (as in "red over red, you're dead") if you go below 2.5 degrees. In fact, I believe it's illegal to remain below the VASI glide slope when the VASI is present. Your videos look like you're way below that. In my opinion, the VASI glide slopes are chosen for heavier aircraft that have so much inertia that they can't flare and change their glide slope like a small single engine airplane can. In a 182, you can have a much steeper approach, and then change to a shallow slope when you get 100 ft. or so from touchdown. Most backcountry techniques require a steeper approach to avoid terrain or trees, and even in the absence of those obstacles, it's still safer to place yourself where you can glide to the runway if you lose power. I often use use a slope somewhere between 4 and 5 degrees.

A slightly steeper slope will let you use a slightly higher airspeed (safer, and might also solve your elevator authority problem). Aim for a spot a hundred feet or so before the desired touchdown point. When you flare, you bring the nose up a little, and your speed drops down to your 60 mph touch down speed, and now you're aimed at the touchdown point. Or, something like that.

So, here is my unsolicited advice: Go practice some touch and goes at an airport that has a VASI or PAPI, and practice bringing it down above the 3 degree glide slope. Or, put yourself at 500 ft. AGL on 1 mile final, and then ride that slope at 1.1 to 1.2 times the stalling speed down to short final. Or, get a different instructor than you've been using, and tell him you want to practice steeper approaches. Or, stop uploading videos that scare me!

My aiport doesnt has VASI only the main international airport and they wont let us go practice there, land or take off but no hanging around.
I understand what you mean about coming high,I always do that on my normal landings.
But when trying short field practice I end up with too much speed.
When reducing power for loosing altitude the nose drops and I gain speed.

Here is an example , yes smoother but not short.

That looked great!

Now, take that approach (except maybe aim another 50 to 100 ft back), and when you are losing speed during the flare, add just a little power so that you can raise your nose a little higher (but not so much power that you actually climb). The change in attitude will make you plow through the air and you will dissipate a bunch of energy just before you touch down. At touchdown, keep the nose up, and as you lose speed, keep pulling back on the yoke until it's in your lap. So, your plowing continues for a little bit after your touchdown, and you lose more energy. And you will land much shorter.

your approach is fine, looks like you need to hold the flair a little longer. In a nose wheel plane people tend to relax on the yoke after touchdown. Keep the weight off the nose, keep the yoke in your lap like one dose with a tail wheel. Adjust your trim will help as well. Your doing the right thing in practicing. You just need to fine tune it a little. Temp , wind, and weight all plays a role in your flying and landing. Practice and more practice is what makes one good. Remember your the pilot in command and trust your judgement...

Ken in Alaska