What do you think would reduce takeoff, climb out, traffic pattern, and landing fatalities? What contributes to pattern work being the most fatal part of general aviation? What can we do to decrease pattern fatalities? AOPA has stuck with NTSB and FAA solutions. Are Dan Gryder, Jaun Browne, Scott Perdue, Ed Wischmeyer, and Aviation 101 AQP AFR Suplemental document correct in their evaluation of NTSB and FAA as D to F on general aviation solutions to the problem? Is what you have experienced out there and what you have witnessed via videos in line with what the NTSB lists as probable cause? Do the above mentioned guys seem to have a more timely and accurate evaluation of the problems and do they offer better solutions? Was David Soucie correct, in "Why Airplanes Crash," that the FAA is first concerned with making the FAA look good, second with assigning guilt with the operator, pilot, or mechanic, and last, if at all, with safety and solutions.

In "Safe Maneuvering Flight Techniques," I have proposed many initial, concurrent (AQP), and recurrent training changes to the school solution. While the school solution has worked pretty well I thought for the airline applicant, Dan and Jaun are ex airline guys who say no way either for airline work or for general aviation. So what do you think? I very much value your comments and criticism. I, like Dan Gryder, appreciate the hates.

The difference in a cult guy and a real person is that the cult guy cannot make a mistake, or at least admit to one. Real deal people admit to being human, being wrong sometimes. Dan admitted that his emphasis on pushing forward hard on engine failure could have been a contributing factor to the 182 crash in Louisiana. A pilot who feared stalls was being trained by an instructor who used Dan's technique and the 182, during stall practice, made a straight down dive 3,000 feet down and twenty feet deep into the mud without spinning. That pilot may have locked up on the controls utilizing that technique. Ok, the FAA said stall, spin was the probable cause. Dan, in his honesty and humanness want's to at least consider other possibilities in our effort to prevent this happening again. So he introduces a solution which would be more helpful than the FAA's implied do more stall and spins training solution. We need to consider the psychological frame of mind of the student. I had the exact same thing with a PA-12 owner who feared landing a tailwheel airplane. He locked up in an early stick full back and locked flair. I blasted enough power in to save the main gear but we caught the prop just barely and que tipped it. I was young and healthy then, but there was no way I was going to move that stick. Like Dan says, adrenaline is powerful stuff.

We are all in this together. Any of us can help. We just need to speak up. Yes, ours is but to do and die, but we can cogitate while doing it.

By the way, Winston Churchill's niece wrote a book, "The Reason Why." Good read. I hate to spoil it for you, but the reason why was "Purchase." Nobles without military experience could buy high command rank. Sort of like some of the guys at the high administrative level in the FAA or most any bureaucracy. "Do you want to be, or do?" John Boyd.

Couple thoughts

According to stats, the stall spin is the number one issue, I don’t really get it, I think much is a CFI self licking ice cream cone, lots of CFIs are scared of spins, so it passes on to their students



Pre solo I used to do spin training with my guys if I could, at the very least I’d do extensive slow flight leading to falling leaf stalls, they had it laser engraved in their head to step on the high wing and break the AOA/unload the wing. I also had turn smart as mandatory viewing



I also was a fan of a continuous turning pattern, more of a oval than a box.

What does it mean to be PIC, if tower asks you to do something you don’t feel right about, “unable”, if you get all jumbled leave the area, get a new plan and come back, this is what we have fuel reserves for.

Comms are not potty training at gun point, just view it as a conversation but try to keep it brief, using “proper phraseology” is a distant 10th place, you’ll pick it up over time, just communicating is number 1, not just making announcements, but also asking and answering.

Hearing two planes on freq just make announcements, NO, hearing one plane about to take off, another say “turning base”, and both planes say “hey do I have time to take off” “sure Im on a 3mi base” etc that’s GOOD

Tech
If you can load a approach, I like to do even for VFR work, get the extended centerline and CDI, this makes it harder to line up for the wrong runway or a taxiway, minus that everything you need is outside, ADSB is great but the second you fully go eyes inside and trust it, Murphy can be a asshole

AOA
We have some really cool tech these days, one is having AOA in smaller planes, sadly most dont know how to use it.
A buddy of mine went through the whole official cirrus training thing, has a very nice SR22 and he’ll was flying that thing in like the space shuttle, mentioning air speeds, yeah airspeed needs to be referenced, but if you can fly your short final on AOA, AOA is primary and ASI is secondary, glance at it in a turn too if you’re concerned, ASI is like a honey badger, it don’t care about anything but how much flying that wing is doing.

Honestly I’d rather everyone have a AOA than ADSB, but we all know the S in ADSB didn’t stand for safety anyways.


If I was going to say one thing to make the pattern more safe, spin training and falling leaf stalls, have a good session of slow flight with turns to headings leading up to every falling leaf stall or spin for pre solo, make it clear we are in slow flight mode (should hear the horn the whole time if equipped) and then state entering a falling leaf stall/right spin/etc now, enter it on command but without being jerky, teach this before solo, and do it in every recurrent event.

When you get slow you a should be anticipating the wing drop and ready on the RUDDERS like





My ¢2

Very good NineThreeKilo. Turn Smart is one of the best training videos. I watched one where the young instructor was explaining that slipping around the turn was preferable to skidding around the turn. Agree in level turn but why didn't he allow the nose to go down as designed? Also he was saying spin was no problem out of slip because the up wing would just drop down into place during recovery. He wasn't aware that wing will continue down and the down wing will go over the top as well. Inadvertent spin is an uncontrolled thing for a second or so. Most of us spraying have got in a hurry and pushed the nose around too much and got the start of a dropped low wing (skid trying to stall the down wing.) We have stood on the up wing rudder rudder and sworn never to push it that hard again. Many more who came to us at Ag Flight as commercials didn't use enough rudder, delaying turn rate dangerously. I was probably the only high time crop duster instructor who preferred to work with the two zero timers who came in Sunday every other week. Nip it in the bud as Barney Fife used to say.

Videos are wonderful, and horrible. Watch how the stick or yoke is in constant motion on short final. Yes, I expect the feet are as well with experience pilots. But why are we trying to make little coordinated turns? Just walk the rudder to keep the target between our toes and keep the wing level as a bi-product. Adverse yaw is totally unwanted here and we have enough to do without practicing Dutch rolls.

I had an interesting argument with a higher time twin engine pilot the other day. It wasn't as much a conversation as him berating me about having no idea what I was talking about and me trying to explain he was wrong. He flies a C421 and was explaining that on the grass he takes off at 90mph. He also stated his stall speed is 75mph, but due to the rough ground and drag from the grass he needs 90mph for his plane to liftoff... I asked him about ground effect but it was already to far gone for that. Some people are just scared to find the slow end of the envelope, then blame other things for their lack of, not sure what to call it, but maybe proficiency? Or effort? I finally walked away...

He has the minimum speed with critical engine out thing, but ground effect helps rather than hurts that. We are creatures of habit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-pLdKLJZuI

Here is our proof that pulling back on the stick in turns in the pattern are just fine. Not.

contactflying wrote:He has the minimum speed with critical engine out thing, but ground effect helps rather than hurts that. We are creatures of habit.

Yes I know about that for sure, but he was going on about how liftoff speed and stall speed are different because of friction from the grass. The whole thing started when he tried to tell me 4000' of strip isn't long enough for a AT602, even though they hardly use half of my 4000' long strip all day long everyday during the summer...

Yes, the book numbers using Vso rather than the airspeed the wing will lift the loaded airplane in very low ground effect would halt spray operations. For us lowly Pawnee drivers, that ground effect had to provide that free energy all the way to the field sometimes. Getting off and level in low ground effect is a whole different thing, energy wise, than climbing out of ground effect.

The Savage Norton in the video above is not making use of free ground effect energy. The school solution taught ignoring free ground effect energy for years, yet it is in the Airman Certification Standards now. In a bureaucracy, common sense takes time to trickle up to the top.

Our Airmen Certification Standards, David, has finally accepted the free energy value of ground effect. "Accelerate to Vx or Vy as appropriate" became "Accelerate in ground effect to Vx or Vy as appropriate." They have not, however, accepted the free energy value of continuing in low ground effect until pitch up to clear an obstruction is necessary or cruise airspeed is attained. There is a hell of a lot more zoom reserve in the form of airspeed, there is more than Determined Minimum Maneuvering Speed, there is even greater than critical engine out airspeed at cruise. Not always available, sure, but more than "Vx or Vy as appropriate" is almost always available in low ground effect on our long runways today. Far more fatalities from loss of control because of insufficient airspeed occur from stall on takeoff from these long runways than from takeoff from remote and shorter runways as in the backcountry like Alberta and BC.

Science is too numbers oriented to be safe for aviators. It doesn't like ol contacts, "takeoff as fast as practicable and land as slow as practicable. We need a bit more art. Like Wolfgang says, the experienced pilot will rather aim for the middle of the obstruction and then zoom over at the last moment.

I aim for the top 1/3

Nine ThreeKilo said, "I also was a fan of continuous turning pattern, more oval than a box." If you look at Rob's crop dusting race track patterns, that is exactly what he is doing. Yes he is, "allowing her to have her head," meaning allowing the nose to go down naturally in the later part of the turn when she slows down a bit.

Simple communication is better than confusing complicated communication, I agree. Also when ATC or Tower is auctioneer too fast, slowly ask them to, "say again."

Having the ILS or even VOR radial or GPS down the centerline extended would have helped the SR22 pilot at Centennial keep from making a downwind turn to 17 R carry right across the centerline of 17 L and hit the Metroliner. Good point.

Weather AOA, ASI, ADSB, or coordination ball: unless heads up it is a distraction rather than an aid.

You needed a kangaroo rather than a gunfighter, but you are absolutely correct about making any wing drop come back up with RUDDER. At that airspeed, aileron is more adverse yaw than roll control. If the wing is almost stalled, the down aileron will certainly stall that wing. And no, it will not drop into proper place if you are slipping rather than skidding. The good wing (up aileron) will fly circles around you.

Good thoughts, Nine ThreeKilo.