A couple of weeks ago, I was doing a checkout with a new member of our flying club. This new member had just gotten his PPL the week before. During the course of the checkout, I was floored to find out some of the things that the CFIs down at Bountiful, UT are teaching. I thought it would be some good fodder for discussion. Here is what I found:

1. When doing emergency landings, they are teaching to land straight ahead, with only a turn up to 30 degrees left or right. As a result, a point 2 counties away in front of the aircraft was selected despite the ample landing fields directly under the aircraft. Nearing the point of landing, multiple changes to the intended spot of landing had to be made to compensate for the actual glide. Which leads me to the next one...

2. Flaps are ONLY to be used if a steeper descent is needed. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Despite the student repeatedly questioning the instructors (up to 4-5 of them) about this, all told him to not land with flaps. I posed these two questions: Do you land faster or slower with flaps? Are you going to get hurt more going faster or slower when you hit something? I followed this with a few paragraphs from Sparky's Mountain Flying Bible. After 3 botched simulated emergency landings, he made a real pretty one the following day after we talked about using flaps. So how do you think these new pilots will react when they loose an engine with the nose pointed to water with the only land behind them or worse, when in the mountains when the only chance you have is that one short meadow...that is low and to your 4 o'clock?

3. The instructor would not go up with him if the wind was over 10 knots. Now, solo is one thing, but personally, I feel that as an instructor you need to prepare your student for the mild extremes and expose them to strong winds, rough air, etc. when the opportunity presents itself. I think that they are doing a real disservice by not exposing their students to conditions that they will now have to face for the first time on their own.

4. We did some power on stalls. He recovered nicely from the first buffet of the stall. I said, "OK, now give me one and take it to a full stall." He said he had never done one before. Again, I believe in exposing a student so he will know what to do when he isn't coordinated and inadvertantly stalls it because he was trying to pick up his GPS that fell on the floor on takeoff. We did a few and he learned the value of being coordinated. He also learned how to level the wings with the rudder during the recovery when he wasn't coordinated.

Overall, the impression I got was that there is some bad instruction being given down there by inexperienced CFIs. I would be willing to bet that bad instruction has been passed down from instructor to student, who eventually becomes the instructor. Like I said, I was dumb founded when I heard what they are teaching. How about some of you Skypark guys swing by and enlighten them a little?

Are those CFI's from Air Safety in Phoenix?

I just got my PPL and I'm blown away at what the CFI's are teaching down there in Bountiful, too. Good thing I didn't go there to learn to fly.

For emergency landings, I was taught to pick a spot that you'll make it too (in front, to the side, and behind you). In fact, one time my instructor was ticked because I passed up a perfect field that was BEHIND me. As far as flaps go, use them when needed and just before landing.

10 knots? Heck, one time I arrived at the FBO for my flight instruction on a windy day (15-20 knot winds), I thought for sure my instructor was going to call off flying that day. When I asked him about the winds, he looked out the window and said "Looks good to me". I was like, "oookkk" .

Also, I did plenty of power on/off stalls. After time, they are actually fun.

I really hope that at least one of the Bountiful students (and CFI's) finds this discusion and take some notes. I'm sure there will be plenty more replies.

It's all in what the FAA is currently mandating (teach spins, don't teach spins), and what the instructor is comfortable with. Emergency landings need to flexible: what's your altitude and what's around you should determine whether you continue straight ahead or use flaps. When I took my PPL checkride in 1995, the examiner was ticked off because I circled a cornfield (right below me, I could see what was there), pulled full flaps, and almost landed because he was slow to tell me to add power. I would have landed, too, just because he was a real a$$. We went back up to 3000', where he pulled the power again then pointed somewhere just over the horizon and told me to land "there." I did it, but only to pass the checkride, not something I'd do in real life because I couldn't see it, couldn't tell what was in that field, and wasn't sure I could actually glide that far (we did, but just barely). For flight reviews now, it's anything up to a 90* turn if you're only a couple hundred feet high (ie, just after takeoff), but definitely not a 180*. Too many pilots stall at 400* trying to turn back to the airport while trying to maintain their altitude.

I'm still nervous in windy conditions because my instructors were happy to cancel on windy days. They sure didn't do me any favors, and for that I am NOT grateful.

ASW

The Phoenix Air Safety discussion is what prompted me to post my experience.

My instructor was the same way. Retired Air Force with not much sympathy. I've always been thankful for the way he taught me. I learned in Burley, Idaho and the wind was always blowing there.

One thing I like to do is pull an engine on a student, let him do his thing, and then, after it is all said and done, ask him why he didn't choose the runway to land on. Usually I get a "What runway?" In the meantime, I've repositioned the plane back at the starting point and show him the grass field sitting at his 4 o'clock low. It drives the point home to check his blind spot on the other side of the aircraft.

A couple of weeks ago I had my student out on a windy day. By the time we were ready to come in, it was 20 gusting 30. Of course it was mostly down the runway, but it was good practice for him. Of course, with this I always stress knowing your limits, you aircraft limits, and the limits that they will have to abid by when soloing. Overall, good exposure/experience for him.

Congrats on the PPL.

ASW wrote:For flight reviews now, it's anything up to a 90* turn if you're only a couple hundred feet high (ie, just after takeoff), but definitely not a 180*. Too many pilots stall at 400* trying to turn back to the airport while trying to maintain their altitude.

During college when I was in the Dallas area teaching in a cub, the field we were based out of didn't have a lot of good options for landing if you lost an enine on takeoff. So, I went out and experimented until I knew exactly how much I needed to make a 180 to the field, including a fudge factor for wind and a windmilling prop, etc. It can be done in any aircraft, but you need to know what your minimum required altitude is and be proficient in doing it. The other reason I experimented was it was just so much fun to do it.

I don't know what is required regarding spin training in the US, but when I was training in the '70s we did both incipient and full spins. A full spin is likely to develope quickly in a power on stall. We also did spiral entry and recovery which I don't hear much about these days.

In the '70s there was no requirement in Canada for the 5 hours of instrument training they now have. I had to add that while getting my float rating.

The best learning comes from experience. Knowing your limitations and not pushing them will help keep you alive.

wow that sounds like really shoty CFI's I got my PPL last fall and have never heard of any of those technics.

Some of it is the CFI's, some is the flight schools (I know of two that do not allow the planes to takeoff if the winds are greater then 12 knots) and some of it is the students. If it is not in the PTS students don't want to (definitly don't seem to ask to) learn it. I only got my PPL a few years ago and the only reason I learned my planes emergency limits is because I asked and found a instructor that would go up and practice (with the tower's permision, which you would have a much harder time getting now) simulated emergencies after takeoff.

As far as the stalls go, in order to get a PPL you have to demonstrate a stall. "recovers promptly after the stall occurs" -PPL PTS. So if people with their PPl haven't done full stalls then you can easily report the DPE to the local FSDO. The first report the DPE will get asked about it if the same DPE keeps getting reported then they will have to do their version of a 709 ride.

Student pilots, actually ALL pilots (present company excepted of course) sometimes can't seem to remember what they were taught. I've had more than one student on a stage check deny ever having learned something, only to go to the instructor and find out that they'd indeed spent quite a bit of time on that very thing.... Then, go back to student and enquire about the differences. Student almost always fesses up that "well, yeah, we did cover that, I guess I just forgot".

Don't forget that insuring a fleet of training aircraft is EXPENSIVE, and sometimes it isn't the school that selects wind and weather limitations, but rather the insurance policy.

All that said, when most of your instructors have NO actual operational experience in the real world, what do you expect them to teach? That which THEY were taught, of course. That's why I really don't like "inbred" flight training outfits that hire only their own graduates..

MTV

...speaking of emergency landings. If this was already posted, sorry.

This one will make you think. This is a good, calm pilot.
Click the attached link and listen to the pilot and Cleveland Center ATC the guy had a engine failure at night.

http://media.aopa.org/mp3/n613jm.mp3