For takeoff I'm lazy and don't want to get the mindset that nothing is going to go wrong.

For landing it's a judgement call. I feel that I am safer just looking out the window. I have seen and avoided hundreds of airplanes that I was pretty sure did not see me. How am I sure some did not see me?: They were very upset after I gave way and landed behind them. They were upset that they didn't have a chance to hear and avoid (perhaps) me. I don't know if checklists were part of the problem, but I expect they were. I had more problems with larger than with smaller airplanes.

A checklist can be very detailed and still have a logical flow about it. Critical components of this checklist can (should, IMHO) also be memorized.

If I've been out of the cockpit for a while on specific military aircraft, I review and recite (rote memory) my EPs, limits, Before Take-Off and Before Landing checklists. Things I shouldn't have to look up in the checklist to react to.

Hell, I haven't flown a Kiowa Warrior in over 2 years and I can still recite the Before Take-Off and Before Landing checks. Most of the EPs and Limits, too.

A detailed checklist should not necessitate heads-down in the cockpit aside from the quick scan required to verify your systems are in compliance with the checklist.


However (BIG however), the simpler the airplane, the simpler the checklist should be. In my airplane, my Before Take-Off check is simply:

Flaps - Set
Mixture - Rich
Fuel - Both or Fullest Tank
Trim - Set

I check a lot of other things on my way to the runway, though.


NineThreeKilo,
I'm probably splitting hairs, but a lot of the things on your before take-off checklist I would much rather see on a run-up check or even a before line-up check. I feel like (likely mostly because of the way my professional checklists are lined out) that a before take-off check is simply the last things you need to verify to safely start flying the airplane.


Just my two cents. Take them for what they're worth!

Agree Cameron. You didn't catch my error on the memorized Huey TO checklist. It should have been "gauges in the green" not "rotor in the green." Thought I was auto-rotating for a sec there.

Army checklists are very logical and organized. It also helps that all the analogue dials need to orient the same way. The mechanics would just twist the gauge around so that they would line up with every thing running properly. Nor do they worry about repetition not being warm and fuzzy enough as a teaching technique. I can't believe I still remember the Huey after all these years.

Does the newer stuff have bar graph type gauges? I expect they make that line up as well.

If civilians would observe how much effort the Army puts into making all instruments easy to check at a glance and how many places we can see out of, they wouldn't keep pushing their instrument panels up so high you can't see the ground anywhere near the aircraft.

Except for scout pilots, there are two sets of eyes. One of the two pilots is looking outside 100% of the time.

I was going to break it down more, before start, after start, etc, just aren't enough systems on the A185F to warrent IMO, so it's just all under before T/O.

Agreed, Jim. And in the newer days even us scouts were two pilots deep.

93K, I wasn't trying to sharp shoot. If your system works for you then it's a good system for you. Words on a page are just reminders, especially if you're dividing the checklist between the taxi and lineup on your own.

CamTom12 wrote:Agreed, Jim. And in the newer days even us scouts were two pilots deep.

93K, I wasn't trying to sharp shoot. If your system works for you then it's a good system for you. Words on a page are just reminders, especially if you're dividing the checklist between the taxi and lineup on your own.

No worries.

I fly single pilot turbine for work, there's something for having everything super broken down, but for a A185F that doesn't have pusher, windshield heats, etc etc, I find the simple checklist works fine.

On the water the line between taxi and lineup is a little more fuzzy, it's hard to do a run up and not taxi at the same time

NineThreeKilo wrote:On the water the line between taxi and lineup is a little more fuzzy, it's hard to do a run up and not taxi at the same time

Hahaha, good point!

Very true about how easy it is to say the appropriate response without actually checking it. That rears its head fairly often at work. Luckily the error is almost always trapped by one of the two pilots catching it, or at worse as a last catch all, the automated systems check does. Without fail, the times when things are missed occur when we are either in a hurry or something has occurred that has taken us out of our normal flow of events. Being aware of these two things occurring is a good red flag to slow things down and double check your work!

For my flying away from work, the only time I use a paper checklist is for the run up/before takeoff. And, as mentioned before, it's a flow followed by a checklist. If I haven't flown a lot lately, it takes me a few more seconds to run through it. The rest are flows like GUMPS, etc. leaving my head and hands free to aviate. I have a habit of verbalizing GUMPS. In the last few weeks, Adam has started to recite it with me. I guess it's starting to sink in after hundreds of hours of flying and hearing it!

Personal checklist:

(90) DAY SELF CHECKOUT

Practice:

* Takeoffs/Landings hardsurface
* Water touchdowns
* Stalls
* steep turns (45 degrees in amphib) using inside and outside references
* climbs/descents using different primary instruments

Basically I see if I remember how to fly safely.

CamTom12 wrote:Agreed, Jim. And in the newer days even us scouts were two pilots deep.

93K, I wasn't trying to sharp shoot. If your system works for you then it's a good system for you. Words on a page are just reminders, especially if you're dividing the checklist between the taxi and lineup on your own.

Good to hear from the Army guys! I kind of "grew up" in that culture; dad was a Vietnam Cobra guy and instructor afterwards (primary). Learned a lot from him. He was very much a KISS person when it came to instrumentation, check lists, procedures. Still is. He taught me early on the "important" things to focus on.

In my plane (fairly simple)....it's all phonetics. I use the printed check list for pre-flight, then everything else is memory. Start: MMTPMS, runup: CIGFTR, Landing: GUMPS, then shutdown is: REMMM

fivenineSC,

I was Apache 21 in A Troop 1/9th Air Cav 1st Cav Div all over III Corps 03 Nov 70 to 03 Nov 71. When was your dad there and what unit.

contact

contactflying wrote:fivenineSC,

I was Apache 21 in A Troop 1/9th Air Cav 1st Cav Div all over III Corps 03 Nov 70 to 03 Nov 71. When was your dad there and what unit.

contact

Wow! small world. I may be screwing the terminology up because I'm a Navy guy....but to the best of my knowledge here goes. He was in the 7/1 Air Cav. I have a picture of him standing next to a cobra with an "apache" behind the engine Nacelle, not sure if that means "A" troop. He was there in 1969/70 and spent most of his time in Vinh Long. I believe that would be "IV" Corps? After that he went back to Wolters to instruct. My Sister was born at Carswell when he was in Viet Nam, My brother born at Wolters while he was instructing. Wolters in '67, rucker for cobra school in '68, Vietnam and then Wolters in 70/71. CWO3 Knox.

Edit: It was bugging me on dates, so I went to "the source" . 7th of the 1st air cavalry (part of first aviation brigade). I was off on my dates; 3/1/68 through 2/28/69.

fiftynineSC wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:Agreed, Jim. And in the newer days even us scouts were two pilots deep.

93K, I wasn't trying to sharp shoot. If your system works for you then it's a good system for you. Words on a page are just reminders, especially if you're dividing the checklist between the taxi and lineup on your own.

Good to hear from the Army guys! I kind of "grew up" in that culture; dad was a Vietnam Cobra guy and instructor afterwards (primary). Learned a lot from him. He was very much a KISS person when it came to instrumentation, check lists, procedures. Still is. He taught me early on the "important" things to focus on.

In my plane (fairly simple)....it's all phonetics. I use the printed check list for pre-flight, then everything else is memory. Start: MMTPMS, runup: CIGFTR, Landing: GUMPS, then shutdown is: REMMM

Awe yes REMMM! The first one I ever learned. Still use it today. What's MMTPMS? I can probably get most by guessing but thought I'd ask. There was also CIGARS when flying a J-3.

If your Dad was in the TH-55, Mattel Messerschmidt, at Ft. Wolters, we may have crossed paths in early 70. I was in ORWAC 70-24. Mr. Duncan, a civilian, was Flight Commander. The infamous Ronnie Westmoreland, also a civilian, was my instructor. Even if your Dad came after April, he heard of Ronnie Westmoreland. His entire stick, three students, always were the first three to solo. That was even when he had Vietnamese students who spoke little English. I was the first to solo in Class 70-24.

Westmoreland is more responsible than anyone else for my weird teaching style. He taught me to hover on my first lesson in twenty minutes. I had flown Cubs so I understood moving the controls. Cpt. Mike Edelman and 2Lt. Steve Cannon, my stick buddies, said he would get irritated with them not moving the controls enough. He would throw the cup of coffee, he always carried, in the chin bubble and push the left pedal to the stop and say, "This is the left anti-torque pedal. It makes the helicopter pivot to the left." He would let the helicopter go all the way around 360 degrees and stop exactly on the pole we used to line up on before stopping momentarily and then demonstrating what the right pedal did.

Since this thread is on checklists I will also tell the Westmoreland checklist story. The first day, we three students went out and started the several page pre-flight checklist. We were on about item five when here he came around the corner of the building yelling, "Why ain't the rotor turning? Get in," pointing at Cpt. Edelman, "let's go"!

Sloppy yes. Unconventional yes. Irresponsible yes. He turned out hundreds of really good helicopter pilots for the Army in Vietnam. There was a war going on. Politically correct techniques are not always the most efficient. They are, however, always the most politically correct.

contactflying wrote:If your Dad was in the TH-55, Mattel Messerschmidt, at Ft. Wolters, we may have crossed paths in early 70. I was in ORWAC 70-24. Mr. Duncan, a civilian, was Flight Commander. The infamous Ronnie Westmoreland, also a civilian, was my instructor. Even if your Dad came after April, he heard of Ronnie Westmoreland. His entire stick, three students, always were the first three to solo. That was even when he had Vietnamese students who spoke little English. I was the first to solo in Class 70-24.

Sloppy yes. Unconventional yes. Irresponsible yes. He turned out hundreds of really good helicopter pilots for the Army in Vietnam. There was a war going on. Politically correct techniques are not always the most efficient. They are, however, always the most politically correct.

Yes, TH55. I sent him a text about Westmoreland and Duncan. I'm almost sure I've heard those names. Duncan really rings a bell.

I like what you said about teaching style. It gets the job done, always has. I got my ticket in a part 141/air force IFT. Instructor was a ret. Lt. col. Lots of single syllable words and a boat load of experience. He reinforced the KISS principle as well. Commit it to memory. Still people flying and dropping bombs right now that don't use a written checklist.

Grassstrippilot wrote:

fiftynineSC wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:Agreed, Jim. And in the newer days even us scouts were two pilots deep.

93K, I wasn't trying to sharp shoot. If your system works for you then it's a good system for you. Words on a page are just reminders, especially if you're dividing the checklist between the taxi and lineup on your own.

Good to hear from the Army guys! I kind of "grew up" in that culture; dad was a Vietnam Cobra guy and instructor afterwards (primary). Learned a lot from him. He was very much a KISS person when it came to instrumentation, check lists, procedures. Still is. He taught me early on the "important" things to focus on.

In my plane (fairly simple)....it's all phonetics. I use the printed check list for pre-flight, then everything else is memory. Start: MMTPMS, runup: CIGFTR, Landing: GUMPS, then shutdown is: REMMM

Awe yes REMMM! The first one I ever learned. Still use it today. What's MMTPMS? I can probably get most by guessing but thought I'd ask. There was also CIGARS when flying a J-3.

master mixture throttle prime mags start.

I used to fly Explorer Pipeline from Chicago to the Shell Refinery in Houston by you. Those oil tankers in the channel make the Battleship Texas look like a toy.

fiftynineSC wrote:Commit it to memory. Still people flying and dropping bombs right now that don't use a written checklist.

At least until the last OH-58D goes to get mothballed