I don't have skis and I don't have floats. But how would it work to land on frozen lakes in the Cascades this time of year with a wheel plane? I can imagine all the risks of breaking through, deep snow cover, rough spots, etc, but is this something folks do? Seems like it might be fun to explore a new dimension, but I'm not too sure how to know how thick the ice is.

tom

I snowmobile in the Oregon cascades. Every year they drop a sled through somewhere. I was told it is not cold enough long enough to be safe. You see riders out there and they will tell you don't stop. Beware. Regards...Rob

Snowmachines have a distinct advatage when it comes to frozen water. There is momentum and speed. You can float and "water skip" the open water. Planes don't have that advantage. Well, too often anyway.
That having been said, I have recently had the pleasure of learning to land on glare ice.
There are a couple of rules with ice. Clear ice will give a "true" value while white ice gives a half value. OK, what I mean is that if you have 6-8" of clear ice, it's good for that value of depth. If you have white ice, cut that value in half. It might be 6" thick but it's worth 3" in strength. That's for fresh water ice by the way. Sea ice will give a value of about 1/2 of the above. From what I understand there is no such thing as clear salt water ice. Take it with a grain of salt, I'm still learning.
There are two things that I have learned about landing on clear, wind blown, glare ice. When you land, do not dump the flaps and clean the plane up as you would on a short/soft landing. You have no (did I mention NO resistance) drag to stop you other than what you have hanging out there (flaps, elevator, etc) My first ice landing with a final "over the numbers" speed of about 50mph & took almost a 1/2 mile! I touched the brakes at about 25-30 mph and the Damn thing sped up!
The second is; Watch the wind because you will weather vane something fierce! Makes floats look like slow motion.
It is one of the neatest experiences you'll have though. I was watching the fish below the ice.
Did I mention I forgot the camera?
Snow on ice:
I have just the 8:50's and have been real cautious as to what I've been willing to land on. The Pros say you can go up to your axle before you have to worry but I balance that against the type of snow I land on. Powder you can blow away, no problem. Crust of ice, a little rain crust, wet, heavy snow, I won't go. Started putting the skis on tonight. Wouldn't you know it, forcast says Sunday wth a high of 40 and then cold again. Looks like overflow........

During the past several winters here in Maine, I've had the opportunity to land on ice with just wheels. Each year there is a ice fly-in on Sebago Lake which features a winter carnival and air show. Across the border in New Hampshire is Alton Bay. Alton Bay is an FAA certified ice runway. Approx. 3000' in length and 70' wide with snow banks. I prefer a three point landing on the with a full stall. There is no braking effectiveness and you may have to pull the mixture and have a passenger step out and push the tail around to get onto the taxi way. Coming to a stop is the same as floats. Pull the mixture ahead of time. Taking off is entirely different. I realized that I needed to point the nose 10 degrees right and slowly advance throttle to overcome torque. With no snowbanks just add power when you have the wind on your nose. Always overfly your landing area before you commit to landing. You will be amazed by what you can spot by overflying low and slow. Pressure ridges will shear the landing gear off you ride. I always look for cracks that span across the lake from above and land parallel to them if the wind allows. Also have to keep the occasional snowmobiler cranking across the lake in mind as well as, ice shacks and newly drilled fishing holes. Use good judgement, know what the wind is doing, understand what happens to expanding ice, watch out for snow drifts and have a blast.

Weber Lake in February. I landed third behind a shortwing Piper and a portly 182. Great fun.

Sounds like a good creed for ice (like for a lotta backcountry places) might be "never be number one to land". I've seen lotsa pics of airplane down thru a hole in the ice- scary. But then I'm a chicken....

Eric

Nothing quite like whippin' brodies on crystal clear lake in your favorite backcountry plane, except maybe the 1/2 mile sideways power slide.

Here is a little tip I picked up from an old hand out in the Iliamna region: get yourself a 10 to 12 lb bowling ball, available and cheap at many garage sales and thrift stores; make a slow pass at between 150' to 200' agl; drop said ball. If you do not see the ball when you turn to find it do not land. I know this is not very scientific, and there are many variables --I fly at 200' plus when I drop. Still it is better than landing totally blind to the possible ice conditions. To that point my airframe remains intact after many lake landings, and I still have balls --bowling balls that is.

Do not take my word for it. Go drop a bowling ball onto ice that you know supports your plane. How high do you climb before the ball breaks through? Can you get a look at how high the ball bounces? Be careful of using this technique in populated areas.

Happy New Year All,

Chet

Wow..the ice that can stand up to that test has gotta be plenty skookum.
The idea of dropping a bowling ball kinda got me fantasizing about doing it..... on houses,cars, etc. Cool!

Eric

The bowling ball sounds like more fun than dropping a bag of flour. I'm picturing an old fish house or old pickup on the ice for a target. Bring your own ball and try to land it in the pickup box. This could make for a good winter fly in.

As far as judging ice in this neighborhood, if there are pickups and fisherman, it is probably thick enough. But our lakes and sloughs can have springs along the shoreline which are hard to see under fresh snow.

Bill

I love the bowling ball idea! It is alway great to find a way to tie safety with fun and danger. Maybe I should get to know some of the snowmobile crowd, too. They might be a source of lake ice reports.

tom

My wife wanted to know what I was laughing so hard about, bowling balls indeed! Just the mental image of a 15lb black super ball/Hockey puck cruising merrily the length of the lake....!
Snowmachines are good and bad. If you can watch one cruising along on a lake, watch the trail for overflow. Overall weight and weight distribution for them doesn't equate for a plane and the tracks they leave can make for a pretty rutted surface.

So do you pick up the bowling balls after you have dropped them? I would hate to hit one with a snowmobile at speed.

Do they float or sink in water?

That is a neat idea, you gotta wonder where people come up with plans like that!

Hey SuperDave,

Where is Weber lake? That looks like a pretty cool spot.

Dave

Hey Dave
Webber Lake is just west of Sierraville, Ca. Independence Reservoir and Jackson Meadow Reservoir are real close by. The hotel in the background was built in 1860 and has a satellite dish on the south side. Cool place.

We found some clear, smooth ice on a slough one day and played with the Tcraft on wheels...It was really fun and educational to see just how far it would go and the best way to save it when sliding sideways... I learned alot! We knew it was super smooth and had inspected it before we went sliding...but I'd recommend it to everyone!!
My friend had his Champ on skiis, so he'd land on the lakes first and wave me in if the snow and ice were good.... can't think of a better way to spend a "superbowl Sunday"!!
JH

Decided to go with 8.50's instead of skis this winter. The snow on my strip is packed down pretty solid and it is much more convenient to land on the pavement in Fairbanks and Talkeetna.

Flying in Canada in December I got to play in the snow a bit with 7.00 tires on. Teslin to Northway most of the runways had snow up to the axles (plow trucks apparently had better things to do than plow the AlCan runways in the dead of winter during a snowstorm except at Whitehorse.) Pretty light snow so I didn't feel in jeopardy, but the drag on takeoff was very noticeable. I got in the habit of first taxiing on the first two thirds of the active to lay tracks in which I could try to stay during my takeoff role - the reduction in drag was noticeable if I could stay in them. Also second the opinion about counteracting torque - unlike on skis, with wheels you will find the plane pointed about 10 degrees to the right to maintain centerline travel during your takeoff "slide" if the snow is either slippery or light enough at full power

I just re-read Yellowmaule's post from Dec 28: "...clear salt water ice. Take it with a grain of salt..." kinda struck me funny.

Eric

Too bad you don't have the skis on, the days are getting warmer, er longer anyway and I have been thinking about getting everyone up here together for a little ice fishing & such long about the end of this month or begining of next. There is too much snow at the cabin for wheels but here at home, it's nothing but very rough ice. One of my neighbor's came in the other day and when he touched down, the noises the spam can made was amazing, sounded like it was getting torn apart! I felt like I was going to loose a filling or two when I landed as well.
We need some more snow!