So I pick up a passenger in Driggs the other day, going in was a junk show. First, they were launching a glider from 3 while aircraft #1, a flight of four huskies and myself converged from different directions. I took a lap East of the river while one guy reversed course with an orbit out of the downwind, the flight of four chased him into the downwind for 21, and everyone extended for the glider which bailed East. By the time I followed the fourth Husky with my 182, I was pretty much making it a flight of 5, squeak, squeak, squeak, we all landed nose to tail and got the heck out of the way of the planes trying to get out. No harm, no foul, just another busy day in paradise. Well, I picked up my passenger and announced that I was taxiing to three which is closer, better departing terrain, and the wind was calm.. Two planes announced inbound 6 and 7 miles out. I expedited my taxi time with a rolling mag check, then announced a departure from 3. About 3/4 of the way down the runway a plane overtakes me on the downwind for 21, left and high, so I announce I'm going to turn left (west) behind him so I'm out of his way which I do about the time he's abeam the numbers. There's not much room to the East, especially with the glider in tow using it. That's when a snotty voice gets on the radio and tells me there's a number 2 plane on the downwind and I just flew under him, to which I respond that I'm low(500agl) and I'll stay that way. Now he's even more beligerent about it, being a dick on the radio and has someone call me the next day to forward how pissed off he is. I didn't think it was too big of a deal, kind of like the inbound I'd just endured, uncontrolled airspace, seeing and avoiding other airplanes. I think I would have given the outbound plane some room or just used the same runway if the roles were reversed but I wonder if I'm missing something. Before I tell him to get bent next time I see him, I thought I'd ask if broke some unspoken rule. What say ye?

Now maybe I am All Wet, But the departing traffic owns the runway unless someone else is on final.
You turn out under him at 400' and if he is on down wind that should put him 500' above you in a standard pattern unless he is going faster then he should be another 300' higher??
Uncontrolled airport calm wind?? Departing traffic calls the active runway!

I'm sure there are some here who will know the verse and book it's under.

Did they make a standard 45 degree entry to down wind

I wouldn't waste the time or effort to get into it with the ASSHOLE

My advice is worth what it costya

Nosedragger wrote:So I pick up a passenger in Driggs the other day, going in was a junk show. First, they were launching a glider from 3 while aircraft #1, a flight of four huskies and myself converged from different directions. I took a lap East of the river while one guy reversed course with an orbit out of the downwind, the flight of four chased him into the downwind for 21, and everyone extended for the glider which bailed East. By the time I followed the fourth Husky with my 182, I was pretty much making it a flight of 5, squeak, squeak, squeak, we all landed nose to tail and got the heck out of the way of the planes trying to get out. No harm, no foul, just another busy day in paradise. Well, I picked up my passenger and announced that I was taxiing to three which is closer, better departing terrain, and the wind was calm.. Two planes announced inbound 6 and 7 miles out. I expedited my taxi time with a rolling mag check, then announced a departure from 3. About 3/4 of the way down the runway a plane overtakes me on the downwind for 21, left and high, so I announce I'm going to turn left (west) behind him so I'm out of his way which I do about the time he's abeam the numbers. There's not much room to the East, especially with the glider in tow using it. That's when a snotty voice gets on the radio and tells me there's a number 2 plane on the downwind and I just flew under him, to which I respond that I'm low(500agl) and I'll stay that way. Now he's even more beligerent about it, being a dick on the radio and has someone call me the next day to forward how pissed off he is. I didn't think it was too big of a deal, kind of like the inbound I'd just endured, uncontrolled airspace, seeing and avoiding other airplanes. I think I would have given the outbound plane some room or just used the same runway if the roles were reversed but I wonder if I'm missing something. Before I tell him to get bent next time I see him, I thought I'd ask if broke some unspoken rule. What say ye?

So I agree it is pretty easy for him/them to extend so you can get out. Common courtesy suggests that. For some reason there are individuals that feel they have been personally violated if they believe someone has impinged on their right and is pissing on their fire hydrant. I'd just blow it off, the guy is being an ass and I'll bet your not the only one he demonstrates his threatened ego to. As for the next time you see him, I wouldn't bring it up. He is probably just looking for the next chance to be a dick so why give him that opportunity?

My $0.02 anyway. Life is to short for that BS.

I agree with the other guys........ No conflict = no foul.... If no one is on final.. it is your runway to do what you wish... I guess my question is.. how the hell did the pissy pilot get your number to call you the next day to bitch at ya ?

91.113(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

Without taking the time to look for them, there are several Chief Counsel opinions as to what constitutes "while on final approach"--and none of them includes when an aircraft is on downwind. So your taking off on 3 while aircraft A is on downwind for 21 is certainly OK. Once he turns final, and assuming that he's making a relatively normal size pattern with no more than a 3 mile final (10 and 15 mile "finals" don't count), no one should be taking 3, even if they can get off and out before he arrives.

Then you say you apparently flew under aircraft B, also on downwind for 21, because you turned crosswind and remained at 500' AGL. Presuming that aircraft B was at the standard TPA of 1000' AGL (I can't find an exception for the TPA at Driggs), that 500' separation wasn't a conflict with any traffic on downwind for 21.

Obviously, then, what you did was plenty OK, legal, and safe.

Whenever an airport has left traffic on a runway and right traffic for the opposing runway, the possibility of a conflict under a no-wind condition exists, especially if departing traffic climbs relatively steeply and arrives at TPA quckly. A lot of airports around the country have that situation. Four that immediately come to mind are the old Fort Collins Downtown (now closed), Greeley where I fly from, North Omaha, and Kremmling. So pilots using such airports have to be vigilant for opposing traffic, obviously. But what you did under the circumstances only violated the twit's sensibilities, as far as I can see.

Cary

Try Longmont on weekends, Twin Otter intersection takeoffs, landing opposite plane on rollout, 15 mile final, jump plane pilot practicing his speed speaking, so no-one can understand, few pilots talking, it is better when there is some wind.

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FWIW, I'm pretty sure all of us have been in EACH of the positions mentioned in the OP. I've been the guy who scooted underneath someone to get out of the way, and I've been the guy who was a little surprised to see someone scoot under me, etc. ad nauseam. So one day we're the idiot-er and the next day we're the idiot-ee from somebody's point of view.

So long as everyone had everyone in sight, or knew where everyone else was, then all's well that ends well in most cases. But if someone is doing something that is un-necessarily unsafe, or someone is doing something that nobody else would expect, then is could cause a serious safety problem. So yes, there are times when someone needs to understand they've done something wrong. I have been the guy who got that stern talking-to more than once

Just a few months ago there was a fatal mid-air at Johnson Creek, and one or both of the two pilots MAY have been doing something that was genuinely inappropriate. I have no idea if this is true, I'm just using JC as an example. I know zero about that tragedy other than what I saw here.

Not sure why this guy got all wound up, maybe there was some radio transmissions I missed out on that would help explain things. I never saw him, maybe that's part of it. I knew he was out there and that was somewhere in my 5 second decision to duck and run. I didn't want to get in an airplane race with two of them into rising terrain. Finking me off to my instrument instructor still pisses me off, what a crybaby. Cary brought up a good point about opposite patterns, Driggs has sprawled so much that left traffic doesn't make much sense anyway.

Seeing and avoiding is always a safe way to maneuver on the ground or in the air. As I taught low flying types operating to and from uncontrolled airports, I instructed them to give way to all and I gave them a helpful phrase to use when someone was miffed with our method of operation. It has always worked for me. Just say, "You are probably right." Just repeat this phrase until they get tired and go away.

"You are probably right." Just repeat this phrase until they get tired and go away.

I like it!! ( )
lc