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Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

There is no ADF required for this approach and I'd be happy to fly it with an FAA inspector beside me without an ADF. The missed approach hold point can be identified several different ways, GPS, DME/VOR, LOM along the localizer, or yes, finally ADF. ATC doesn't particularly care how you find it.


One of these days, I'll have to stop thinking like a lawyer. But after 46 years of doing this stuff, it's become a habit.

So you and your buddy the FAA Inspector, and another passenger start into the approach, because you've concluded that the bolded language on the approach plate doesn't apply to you--after all, you've concluded that with your single navcom and your superior skills, you can do it anyway. But you screw up the approach and you have to go missed. In the process of doing your knob-twisting, you fail to realize that you've gotten pretty far off course and mucked up your altitude, and you smack into a rock.

Well, it's true that you don't have to worry about losing your certificate. But there are other considerations besides your now unnecessary certificate. The families of the Inspector and your other passenger want restitution--they've lost their breadwinners. So they sue your estate, for a total of $5 million. It's easy to get the judgment--your negligence was pretty obvious, trying to fly an approach with a clear warning about the equipment requirements, which you intentionally and wrongfully ignored.

Just like you saved all that money not updating your panel, you also saved a lot of money by not buying nearly enough liability insurance. Your insurance company pays its limits into court and gets off the hook that way, although they might have had an insurance defense since you intentionally violated the regs. But they figure that the cost of raising that issue will exceed the paltry amount of liability insurance you purchased, so it's easier to just pay the limits and be done with it.

But that leaves another $4.8 million of the judgment unpaid. So they go after your assets. You and your girlfriend have lived together, along with her kids, for the last 10 years--it's been a great relationship, and you love her, and you love her kids as if they were yours. But you've never adopted them, and while you and she have talked marriage, you've never done it. You've all lived in your home, which you bought before you met her, and it's in your name alone. So are the titles to the pickup, the car, the snow machines, the ATVs, and the 37' cruiser--after all, you paid for them, why have her jointly on their titles?

But you have life insurance, a $2 million dollar policy you took out when the relationship with your girlfriend was new. You didn't name her or the kids as beneficiaries yet, because you weren't sure it would work out. So you named your mom as beneficiary, figuring you'd change it later--but you never did, and mom died a couple years ago. So that policy will pay into your estate.

You never bothered to have a Will done, either. Lawyers cost money, and after all, you must have said at least a hundred times, "I want you to have everything, Trixie, if I ever die." But you never put it in writing, and the only way to do that is with proper estate planning. But you planned your estate as sloppily as you flew that approach--everything you and she have enjoyed together, you own.

So the survivors of your negligent act get your $2 mil policy proceeds, and the titles to your home and your vehicles and boat, which they can sell in order to liquidate their judgment. So Trixie and the kids get nothing, and they have no place to live, no vehicles to drive, only their clothes and the few gifts you gave them.

Do you really think it doesn't matter if you follow the clear bolded language at the top of the approach plate? Really?

Now putting on my pilot hat again, I guess I'm among those who have flown a missed to a hold, not because I had done anything wrong or because I'd failed to anticipate that the weather would be lower than it was (or in your words, because of "a comm failure and a lack of foresight"), but because at the MDA, the airport was not in sight on a non-precision approach. I had expected to see the airport and I expected to land. I didn't, though, so I flew the missed as published and entered the hold, before ATC gave me a further clearance. ATC cleared me to fly the approach again or go to my alternate; I chose my alternate. That was to Rawlins, WY, in 1979. I remember that one specifically, because it was such a surprise, and it was my first "missed for real". There have been others over the years, though admittedly not many.

Bottom line: if the approach plate says you must have certain equipment, you need that equipment, unless the regulations authorize substitution of other equipment. In this case, an approach certified GPS can be substituted for both the ADF and the DME--no handhelds or enroute only GPSs allowed, no triangulating with VORs. Trixie, the kids, and the FAA are counting on you to do it right.

Cary
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Cary wrote:[ In this case, an approach certified GPS can be substituted for both the ADF and the DME--no handhelds or enroute only GPSs allowed,

Cary


Terminal/Enroute GPS is more than adequate here to substitute for the ADF and DME.
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Don't forget, EMIRE is also an IAF. Would definitely need the ADF (or IFR GPS) if cleared that way.

"N12345, proceed direct EMIRE, maintain 3000 until established, cleared for the ILS RWY 4 approach"

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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Cary wrote:
There is no ADF required for this approach and I'd be happy to fly it with an FAA inspector beside me without an ADF. The missed approach hold point can be identified several different ways, GPS, DME/VOR, LOM along the localizer, or yes, finally ADF. ATC doesn't particularly care how you find it.


One of these days, I'll have to stop thinking like a lawyer. But after 46 years of doing this stuff, it's become a habit.

So you and your buddy the FAA Inspector, and another passenger start into the approach, because you've concluded that the bolded language on the approach plate doesn't apply to you--after all, you've concluded that with your single navcom and your superior skills, you can do it anyway. But you screw up the approach and you have to go missed. In the process of doing your knob-twisting, you fail to realize that you've gotten pretty far off course and mucked up your altitude, and you smack into a rock.

Well, it's true that you don't have to worry about losing your certificate. But there are other considerations besides your now unnecessary certificate. The families of the Inspector and your other passenger want restitution--they've lost their breadwinners. So they sue your estate, for a total of $5 million. It's easy to get the judgment--your negligence was pretty obvious, trying to fly an approach with a clear warning about the equipment requirements, which you intentionally and wrongfully ignored.

Just like you saved all that money not updating your panel, you also saved a lot of money by not buying nearly enough liability insurance. Your insurance company pays its limits into court and gets off the hook that way, although they might have had an insurance defense since you intentionally violated the regs. But they figure that the cost of raising that issue will exceed the paltry amount of liability insurance you purchased, so it's easier to just pay the limits and be done with it.

But that leaves another $4.8 million of the judgment unpaid. So they go after your assets. You and your girlfriend have lived together, along with her kids, for the last 10 years--it's been a great relationship, and you love her, and you love her kids as if they were yours. But you've never adopted them, and while you and she have talked marriage, you've never done it. You've all lived in your home, which you bought before you met her, and it's in your name alone. So are the titles to the pickup, the car, the snow machines, the ATVs, and the 37' cruiser--after all, you paid for them, why have her jointly on their titles?

But you have life insurance, a $2 million dollar policy you took out when the relationship with your girlfriend was new. You didn't name her or the kids as beneficiaries yet, because you weren't sure it would work out. So you named your mom as beneficiary, figuring you'd change it later--but you never did, and mom died a couple years ago. So that policy will pay into your estate.

You never bothered to have a Will done, either. Lawyers cost money, and after all, you must have said at least a hundred times, "I want you to have everything, Trixie, if I ever die." But you never put it in writing, and the only way to do that is with proper estate planning. But you planned your estate as sloppily as you flew that approach--everything you and she have enjoyed together, you own.

So the survivors of your negligent act get your $2 mil policy proceeds, and the titles to your home and your vehicles and boat, which they can sell in order to liquidate their judgment. So Trixie and the kids get nothing, and they have no place to live, no vehicles to drive, only their clothes and the few gifts you gave them.

Do you really think it doesn't matter if you follow the clear bolded language at the top of the approach plate? Really?

Now putting on my pilot hat again, I guess I'm among those who have flown a missed to a hold, not because I had done anything wrong or because I'd failed to anticipate that the weather would be lower than it was (or in your words, because of "a comm failure and a lack of foresight"), but because at the MDA, the airport was not in sight on a non-precision approach. I had expected to see the airport and I expected to land. I didn't, though, so I flew the missed as published and entered the hold, before ATC gave me a further clearance. ATC cleared me to fly the approach again or go to my alternate; I chose my alternate. That was to Rawlins, WY, in 1979. I remember that one specifically, because it was such a surprise, and it was my first "missed for real". There have been others over the years, though admittedly not many.

Bottom line: if the approach plate says you must have certain equipment, you need that equipment, unless the regulations authorize substitution of other equipment. In this case, an approach certified GPS can be substituted for both the ADF and the DME--no handhelds or enroute only GPSs allowed, no triangulating with VORs. Trixie, the kids, and the FAA are counting on you to do it right.

Cary


Cary,

Great legal advice.....and free!

Thanks!

MTV
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Bonanza Man wrote:
Cary wrote:[ In this case, an approach certified GPS can be substituted for both the ADF and the DME--no handhelds or enroute only GPSs allowed,

Cary


Terminal/Enroute GPS is more than adequate here to substitute for the ADF and DME.


I just did some more reading and here's what I found for limitations of using GPS in lieu of ADF/DME:

Restrictions when Substituting GPS for ADF or DME

The equipment must be installed in accordance with appropriate airworthiness installation requirements and operated within the provisions of the applicable POH/AFM, or supplement.

The required integrity for these operations must be provided by at least en route RAIM, or equivalent.

WPs, fixes, intersections, and facility locations to be used for these operations must be retrieved from the GPS airborne database. The database must be current. If the required positions cannot be retrieved from the airborne database, the substitution of GPS for ADF and/or DME is not authorized

Procedures must be established for use when RAIM outages are predicted or occur. This may require the flight to rely on other approved equipment or require the aircraft to be equipped with operational NDB and/or DME receivers. Otherwise, the flight must be rerouted, delayed, canceled, or conducted under VFR.

The CDI must be set to terminal sensitivity (1 NM) when tracking GPS course guidance in the terminal area.

A non-GPS approach procedure must exist at the alternate airport when one is required. If the non-GPS approaches on which the pilot must rely require DME or ADF, the aircraft must be equipped with DME or ADF avionics as appropriate.

Charted requirements for ADF and/or DME can be met using the GPS system, except for use as the principal instrument approach navigation source.


So it looks like, if you have RAIM and this ILS isn't the only non-GPS approach at this airport, substituting GPS for ADF/DME is legit.

Interesting stuff to me, we're not allowed to do this in the Army. Our regs characterize GPS as a secondary navigation tool.
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Our regs characterize GPS as a secondary navigation tool.
That's really a pretty good philosophy, considering how easy it is to either muck up the GPS system as has been happening throughout the south tier of states for the last couple years with USAF testing, to revert to selective availability as it was when civilian GPS was in its infancy, or to shut it off altogether, all in the name of national security. Best advice is to always have some other navigational capability and not to become a slave to the magenta line.

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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Cary wrote:
Our regs characterize GPS as a secondary navigation tool.
That's really a pretty good philosophy, considering how easy it is to either muck up the GPS system as has been happening throughout the south tier of states for the last couple years with USAF testing, to revert to selective availability as it was when civilian GPS was in its infancy, or to shut it off altogether, all in the name of national security. Best advice is to always have some other navigational capability and not to become a slave to the magenta line.

Cary


Cary,

The primary fault to that logic is simply the fact that aviation is definitely NOT the power user of GPS these days, if we ever were. In fact, were the government to try to shut down GPS or even re institute SA, UPS, FedEx, and ninety percent of the drivers on the road would raise hell and place a brick under it......

Like it or not, within our lifetimes, GPS will be virtually the sole source of navigation in the world. I'm not saying that's good o bad, but....

MTV
Last edited by mtv on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Yes, I do miss my Loran Alpha :D

I do know that most have used Loran Charlie but how many have used Alpha. Not even MTV cus he was a sonar tech.

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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

CamTom12 wrote:
Bonanza Man wrote:
Cary wrote:[ In this case, an approach certified GPS can be substituted for both the ADF and the DME--no handhelds or enroute only GPSs allowed,

Cary


Terminal/Enroute GPS is more than adequate here to substitute for the ADF and DME.


I just did some more reading and here's what I found for limitations of using GPS in lieu of ADF/DME:

Restrictions when Substituting GPS for ADF or DME

The equipment must be installed in accordance with appropriate airworthiness installation requirements and operated within the provisions of the applicable POH/AFM, or supplement.

The required integrity for these operations must be provided by at least en route RAIM, or equivalent.

WPs, fixes, intersections, and facility locations to be used for these operations must be retrieved from the GPS airborne database. The database must be current. If the required positions cannot be retrieved from the airborne database, the substitution of GPS for ADF and/or DME is not authorized

Procedures must be established for use when RAIM outages are predicted or occur. This may require the flight to rely on other approved equipment or require the aircraft to be equipped with operational NDB and/or DME receivers. Otherwise, the flight must be rerouted, delayed, canceled, or conducted under VFR.

The CDI must be set to terminal sensitivity (1 NM) when tracking GPS course guidance in the terminal area.

A non-GPS approach procedure must exist at the alternate airport when one is required. If the non-GPS approaches on which the pilot must rely require DME or ADF, the aircraft must be equipped with DME or ADF avionics as appropriate.

Charted requirements for ADF and/or DME can be met using the GPS system, except for use as the principal instrument approach navigation source.


So it looks like, if you have RAIM and this ILS isn't the only non-GPS approach at this airport, substituting GPS for ADF/DME is legit.

Interesting stuff to me, we're not allowed to do this in the Army. Our regs characterize GPS as a secondary navigation tool.


What you posted is old and out of date. For example:

1. The database may not have to be current. What's in the paperwork for your GPS installation is what's controlling here, lots of GPS boxes do not require a current database.

2. RAIM is for non-WAAS GPS boxes. Most, if not all, GPS installed today are WAAS units.

3. With a WAAS box there is no need for there to be a non GPS approach at the alternate. WAAS boxes are stand alone primary nav devices.
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Bonanza Man wrote:What you posted is old and out of date. For example:

1. The database may not have to be current. What's in the paperwork for your GPS installation is what's controlling here, lots of GPS boxes do not require a current database.

2. RAIM is for non-WAAS GPS boxes. Most, if not all, GPS installed today are WAAS units.

3. With a WAAS box there is no need for there to be a non GPS approach at the alternate. WAAS boxes are stand alone primary nav devices.


Beats me. The C-12 doesn't have WAAS as the Army still considers GPS a secondary nav source. I've actually never (in my short aviation career) flown a WAAS capable GPS.
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

The WAAS unit needs to meet a minimum TSO standard for that to apply. The unit must have Fault Detection and Exclusion in Enroute, Terminal and Approach mode. There is also SFAR 97 in Alaska which has allowed for some very neat IFR enroute and Approach/Departure structure based only on GPS and very little terrain separation. The only NDB can not be substituted by GPS is if it provides lateral guidance inside inside the FAF.
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

qmdv wrote:Yes, I do miss my Loran Alpha :D

I do know that most have used Loran Charlie but how many have used Alpha. Not even MTV cus he was a sonar tech.

Tim


Yes, but Timmy, you were obviously never on a diesel boat.....

MTV
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

I'd really hate to defend a wrongful death suit, where the (now deceased) pilot chose to use a non-WAAS, non-certified for approaches, GPS with an out of date data base in lieu of a DME and ADF on an approach which says in big capital letters, "DME AND ADF REQUIRED", claiming that it wasn't required. Even explaining that the regs allow certain types of GPSs to be used in lieu of a DME and ADF would be beyond many jury's ability to understand. Nuances are not a good way to win lawsuits.

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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Cary wrote:I'd really hate to defend a wrongful death suit, where the (now deceased) pilot chose to use a non-WAAS, non-certified for approaches, GPS with an out of date data base in lieu of a DME and ADF on an approach which says in big capital letters, "DME AND ADF REQUIRED", claiming that it wasn't required. Even explaining that the regs allow certain types of GPSs to be used in lieu of a DME and ADF would be beyond many jury's ability to understand. Nuances are not a good way to win lawsuits.

Cary


Cary,

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but AVIATION is waaaay beyond many jury's ability to understand, nuances or not.

MTV
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

mtv wrote:Cary,

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but AVIATION is waaaay beyond many jury's ability to understand, nuances or not.

MTV


This.

Seriously, there's so much room for interpretation in many of the regs... It's tough for aviators sometimes, let alone a layperson.
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

The more I fart around twisting knobs and watching for flips and blinks while listening for morse code, the more I think $10,000 for a panel mount 650 isn't so bad. Once you get the approaches all loaded up, they sure make things easy, safe, and legal. Just being able to go direct is worth part of the premium.
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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

mtv wrote:
qmdv wrote:Yes, I do miss my Loran Alpha :D

I do know that most have used Loran Charlie but how many have used Alpha. Not even MTV cus he was a sonar tech.

Tim


Yes, but Timmy, you were obviously never on a diesel boat.....

MTV


Untrue, I spent a few days on the Barbel. Getting a shower every 8 to 10 days on the Queenfish spoiled me. I was not wild about the 83 days submerged though. I was in the Nav department and got real good at dead reckoning. :roll:

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Re: Why ADF requirment for ILS approach

Cary,

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but AVIATION is waaaay beyond many jury's ability to understand, nuances or not.

MTV


This.

Seriously, there's so much room for interpretation in many of the regs... It's tough for aviators sometimes, let alone a layperson.


Ain't it the truth!

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