Backcountry Pilot • Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger?

Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger?

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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Battson wrote:
buck_justice wrote:I have to ask the question will it haul that load into and land on a gravel bar or across chuck holes and stumps?


It's almost a whole different thread... but here goes

I'll speculate that a pilot would be foolish to try and take a trike where tailwheel planes go, in certain locations. Maybe it's possible sometimes, but I'd bet your trike doesn't last as long.... I dont mean beaches, rough airstrips, or gravel bars - I'm imagining a properly rocky river bed or seriously long / uneven grassy / brush surface, totally unsuitable for most aircraft, the >30" wheel country. I have yet to see a 30" nosewheel for a trike that'll let it go into some of the places you can still get a Super Cub, Maule, etc into. At times those places might be the kind of fishing holes or hunting spots you'd want to go, too.

2c.... I love my taildragger =P~


There is some truth to this, but I would point out that nobody's taking 185s into places where Super Cubs rule, either. Take a 185 into a 300 foot long rock pile where some numb nuts just parked a Cub on 35s and you're probably going to be calling your insurance adjust or.

Compare apples to apples, and the 206, properly equipped, will go in and out of most anywhere the 185 will. Bear in mind that instead of two big tires and one TINY one, the 206 can have two big tires and one not quite so big. Properly loaded, it's pretty easy to keep that nose gear off the really rough stuff till you're almost stopped. Only issue there is when empty, when there's more weight on the nose. But empty isn't what these airplanes are for.

The main gear on the 206 is shorter and tougher than the 185 long spindly legs. The nose gear isn't as tough, but it's as tough as the tailwheel, if properly flown.

But, you can't compare a 206 to a Cub. Or a 185 to an Otter. Different beasts.

There has been a resurgence in interest in tailwheel airplanes by "recreational pilots" in the last ten years or so ( and I'm not using that term in a derogatory sense) but even so, the market is really tiny. Who would buy a $750 K brand new 185, hang big tires on it and go bash around the rough stuff? Not many.

Consider the Kodiak, which was purpose designed and built for serious backcountry work in the mission community. These folks use airplanes about as hard as anyone in the world, day in and day out. I asked the designer early on if he considered a tailwheel version, and he said no. And he could easily have built it as a t/w.

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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Well, bugger, just wrote you a big well-thought out reply - and then found out that Shift+Backspace takes me to some other page.

Agree with what you've said there. Bigger BC airplanes don't highlight the advantages of TWs, and hence wont lure a profit-orientated Cessna Co. into the BC aircraft market in the foreseeable future.

I think in terms of a different question, take a selection of TW and trike aircraft in the 2-4 seat range, and a selection of differently skilled pilots (with all the right ratings) and you'd still see a split demographic in terms of preferred aircraft for that "really tricky" spot. I think your comment about the skills required to land a trike in a very rough spot is pertinant - that long grass / brush likes to pull the nose down load up the front.
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Battson wrote:Well, bugger, just wrote you a big well-thought out reply - and then found out that Shift+Backspace takes me to some other page.

Agree with what you've said there. Bigger BC airplanes don't highlight the advantages of TWs, and hence wont lure a profit-orientated Cessna Co. into the BC aircraft market in the foreseeable future.

I think in terms of a different question, take a selection of TW and trike aircraft in the 2-4 seat range, and a selection of differently skilled pilots (with all the right ratings) and you'd still see a split demographic in terms of preferred aircraft for that "really tricky" spot. I think your comment about the skills required to land a trike in a very rough spot is pertinant - that long grass / brush likes to pull the nose down load up the front.


I love the TW, The only trike I own now happens to be a 210 (not a bushplane)
As we all agree a 206- 207 is one of the best trucks out there!!
There is one real time a trike takes the back seat to a TW aircraft!
Fairly short strip, loaded real heavy, raining hard, grass on strip!! does not matter how hard you step on the brakes the tires on the mains just keep slidddddddddding right off the end of the strip and into the brush!!
A 185 can land in the same spot unload there heavy load and then help you cut brush and willows and help you push your NW airplane back out to the strip after you unload it!!

Someone told me about it one time!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Well said MTV...like Gump and Don C, u guys have some massive real-world hours for sure. I realize that u really know the difference in birds, and like u, i really value the trikes. I value the utility in not really having to care what it all weighs when the doors close...while my tail-wheel pals are always stressed out if they are 'goin any distance. Lots of HUSKY'S here in Idaho due to the factory being so close, and people love 'em...!

so it all comes down the the mission's a guy makes for sure. while my 182T is as light as possible, it's still heavy...approaches at 50+ work really well, and departures can be done within4-500 feet if i am on my game. i think we would all have BOTH if it was feasible...! to me the tail-draggers are like my KTM 300xcw in my shop. good for lite-weight work in the mtns...just dont head off to the west on a 400 mile dual-sport day...packing enough stuff to stay a nite or two if something happens...!
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Case that spelled the end for Piper conventional gear planes, Cessna followed suit soon after and permently stopped production of tailwheel aircraft due to the "inherently unsafe design"

(copied and pasted)


The accident happened in 1983 at a residential airpark in New Mexico. The pilot was attempting a takeoff in his Piper Super Cub, towing a sailplane. In the takeoff, the Cub struck a GMC van intentionally parked on the runway by the airpark owner to prevent the takeoff. Apparently, there was some feud going on between the airpark owner and the sailplane operators because of alleged safety violations.

The reason for the flight was to photograph the sailplane for a television commercial. The pilot had the front seat removed (which had a shoulder harness — more about that later) and installed in its place a large movie camera on a camera mount. The camera was mounted in such a way that the cameraman had to sit on two-by-fours facing rearward toward the camera, with his back against the instrument panel. The pilot sat in the rear seat, which had no shoulder harness.

When the Super Cub struck the van, the pilot's body jackknifed forward and his head hit the camera mount. The camera operator was not seriously injured.

The pilot and his wife first sued the van driver for the pilot's injuries. That case was settled for $600,000. The pilot and his wife then brought a product liability lawsuit against Piper Aircraft Corporation. They alleged that Piper was negligent in the design of the Super Cub for two reasons: one, that the Super Cub had inadequate rear-seat forward visibility during takeoff, which caused the collision, and two, that the injuries were caused by the lack of a rear-seat shoulder harness.

At a trial in May 1986, a jury brought in a verdict in the amount of $2.5 million. At the request of the injured pilot's lawyer, the jury was asked to make two separate allocations of fault: first, among the persons responsible for the collision (called "the original tortfeasors"), and second, among the persons responsible for the lack of a shoulder harness (called "the crashworthiness tortfeasors"). The jury decided that the collision was 42.5 percent due to the injured pilot, 41.7 percent to Piper, and 15.8 percent to the person who had approved the alterations to the cabin of the Super Cub to install the camera (that person also was the sailplane pilot). The shoulder harness fault allocation was 8.4 percent to the injured pilot and 91.6 percent to Piper. The jury decided that the van driver had no fault for the pilot's injuries. The injured pilot's lawyer argued that judgment against Piper should be entered for 91.6 percent of the $2.5-million verdict. But the trial court granted judgment against Piper for only 41.7 percent.

Both sides appealed. The appeal court reversed the judgment and sent the case back to the trial court for a new trial, which would permit the jury to find in one "special verdict form" the negligence of the parties and nonparties, whether original or crashworthiness tortfeasors.

Prior to the new trial, Piper asked the trial court to dismiss the case on the basis of federal preemption. Piper argued that a jury should not be permitted to find that the design of the Cub was negligent because the Cub met all of the FAA design requirements, including those relating to pilot visibility and seat restraint systems.

The trial court rejected this argument, and Piper again appealed. That appeal is now pending. The new trial is awaiting the outcome of the appeal.

On appeal, Piper again is urging that federal preemption is a bar to the pilot's claims of negligent design.

In its appeal brief, Piper addressed the alleged defectiveness of the tailwheel design by tracing the history of the Cub and of the tailwheel design.

The Cub came on the scene in 1937 when Piper introduced the J-3 model, which used what was then the standard tailwheel design and had two tandem seats with flight controls at each seat. More than 14,000 of these J-3 Cubs were manufactured and sold from 1937 to 1947. Beginning in 1940, the L-4 Cub, a military version of the J-3 Cub, was manufactured by Piper, and nearly 6,000 of them were produced and extensively used during World War II as trainers, artillery spotters, transports, ambulances, and reconnaissance aircraft. Thousands of pilots received their initial flight training in these airplanes. And, of course, most of the aircraft in use before and during World War II had tailwheel designs, including fighter and bomber aircraft on both sides. The tailwheel is still called the "conventional" gear because it was used on most aircraft models until after World War II.

In 1949, Piper began manufacturing the PA-18 Super Cub. It has the same basic design as the J-3 and L-4 Cub models, with a tailwheel and two tandem seats. Some 10,000 Super Cubs have been built and sold.

The Super Cub involved in this case was manufactured in 1970. At that time, it met FAA design, manufacturing, and production standards and requirements for safe operation, including the tailwheel design. It was issued an FAA airworthiness certificate.

Piper in its brief on appeal argues that "The CAA and the FAA, the federal agencies responsible for aircraft safety, have never considered tailwheel aircraft with their limited preflight forward visibility unsafe nor have these agencies ever believed there was anything wrong or dangerous with the Cub's or Super Cub's tailwheel design or with pilot operations from their rear seats. The CAA and FAA have also been responsible for pilot training and certification, including the instruction given to tailwheel aircraft pilots in how to see that the runway is clear for takeoff and the technique utilized in ground maneuvers which readily overcome[s] the preflight forward visibility limitation."

The lawyers for the injured pilot argue against federal preemption. Recovery for personal injuries due to negligence or product defects has traditionally been a matter of state, not federal, law. That includes injuries arising from air crashes or aviation products. In enacting the Federal Aviation Act, Congress never intended to take this away from the states, plaintiff's lawyers said.

The arguments on both sides about the lack of a shoulder harness run the same general course. The injured pilot's lawyers argue that Piper built the airplane in 1970, using a 1956 design, and delivered it to its owners without shoulder harness strapping (though admittedly having a shoulder harness in the front seat at the time of the accident and attachment points for a shoulder harness in the rear seat). There are 2,000 to 5,000 aircraft crashes each year, and Piper should have known that someday, somewhere, somehow its airplane would crash, the lawyers said. By 1950, federal aviation design guidelines urged shoulder harnesses, and in 1964, the National Transportation Safety Board issued a similar guideline. Both NACA (now NASA) and Piper itself conducted tests that confirmed the value of shoulder harnesses. But for the lack of a shoulder harness, the pilot would not have been injured, the injured pilot's lawyers argued; Piper should have manufactured the airplane with a rear-seat shoulder harness. On July 28, 1983, 14 days after this accident, Piper issued a service bulletin recommending Super Cubs built before 1982, which included the accident airplane, be retrofitted with shoulder harnesses.

Piper argues that the Super Cub involved in this case was never required to have shoulder harnesses. However, all Super Cubs have attach points so that shoulder harnesses can be readily installed in both front and rear seats at the time of sale at the option of the buyer or later by any subsequent owner. The initial owner of this Super Cub did not want any shoulder harnesses, and therefore, none were installed by Piper. A subsequent owner some years later installed a shoulder harness in the front seat.

Shoulder harnesses were first addressed in aviation regulations in 1969 when the FAA required that, for newly type-certificated aircraft, shoulder harnesses were one of three ways to meet a new requirement to protect the head and upper body. Of course, this new requirement did not apply to the Super Cub, which was already type certificated. In 1977, shoulder harnesses became required for front seats only on small aircraft manufactured after 1978. The FAA specifically declined to mandate rear- seat shoulder harnesses, preferring that the decision whether to install shoulder harnesses in small airplanes then in service or in seats other than front seats should be left to the option of the owner of the airplane. In 1985, the FAA required shoulder harnesses in all seats in all small aircraft manufactured after 1986.
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Since it seems that the primary issue with that legal case wound up being the shoulder harness or lack thereof, then it should not affect Piper or Cessna's building tailwheel airplanes. That idiot would have equally hit his head on the camera mount in a Tri-Pacer if he clipped the same van.

The issue of taildragger pilot visibility appears to have been "handled" by the notion that conventional gear, and training for that configuration, is required by the FAA??? Furthermore, the command pilot seat in the Super Cub is the front seat, and other than flight instruction I believe that the pilot in command was operating the airplane improperly by attempting to fly from the wrong seat,and without even a passenger facing forward to see out.

Although I'm far from impartial about their behavior and attitude, I think that fairness in this case dictates that the Super Cub pilot involved in that lawsuit should be delivered to the SC.org club at their next pig roast for some frontier justice.
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

So in reading back through these post. Comparing the 185 and the 206. It seems that the concensus Is that properly loaded and flown it's not about tailwheel or nosewheel as much. It is more about load hauling ability and range. Or said another way. What the 206 lacks in operations it makes up for in load hauling ability, and visa versa. Would you guys agree with that?
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Jeeezzzz I wish you guys would find something else to talk about. I'm quietly trying to buy up all the 206's so come springtime, when the guys at Lake Hood get ready to fly again and realize they've been using the wrong plane, I can make a killing. \:D/
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

buck_justice wrote:So in reading back through these post. Comparing the 185 and the 206. It seems that the concensus Is that properly loaded and flown it's not about tailwheel or nosewheel as much. It is more about load hauling ability and range. Or said another way. What the 206 lacks in operations it makes up for in load hauling ability, and visa versa. Would you guys agree with that?


No.

The point several of us have been trying to make is that the biggest difference between these airplanes has more to do with the pilot than with where the little wheel is mounted.

Not every tri gear airplane is a great off airport machine, but then neither is every tailwheel type.

Load carrying and loading flexibility are important attributes, but what I've been saying is that there are damn few if any places one could regularly take a 185 that couldn't also be landed in a 206. That is, of course, assuming both airplanes are properly equipped for the task. Don't get me wrong....I worked 185s for years, and they have a special place in my heart. But the last 185 I flew regularly was replaced with a 206 contrary to my wishes, and after a very short period working that (modified) 206, I was sold on the 206 for back country flying. One long time air taxi operator in AK sold there last remaining 185 a number of years ago. I asked the owner why....his response was that they assigned the trip to the pilot, who used the plane best for the job. The 185 wasn't getting used much at all, including by the owner. And, this was an outfit that did a lot of rough strip and off airport work. Yes, loading ease and load carrying is a big deal in that world, but not at the expense of replacing nose gears all the time.

EZ, the big issue with that lawsuit was the assertion by the plaintiff, supported by the jury, that the Super Cub (and by association all tailwheel aircraft) is "an inherently hazardous design" because of the lack of visibility when on the ground. That creates a precedent that no manufacturer wants to deal with, nor does their insurance carrier.

I have to believe that Piper didn't take this suit seriously, recognizing how incredibly ridiculous the assertions were. In any case, if so, they badly underestimated the level of ignorance found in the average jury.

Finally, I doubt that Cessna has made ANY money on recip powered. Airplanes for many decades. They build piston powered airplanes generally in hopes that brand loyalty will influence the pilot who learns to fly in a 172 to eventually buy a Citation.
Building a new 180/185 would likely be a dead end, and they'd likely lose money on all three they sold.

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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

mtv wrote:
buck_justice wrote:Building a new 180/185 would likely be a dead end, and they'd likely lose money on all three they sold.

MTV


I don't think there are to many pilots out there who would buy a new 185 for $500,000 put 35's on it and try to go do the ridge top landing or the boulder strewn river bed with it!
I agree it would be nice, but I don't think there would be to many sold!
Just like the turbine Maule, 206, Bonanza, there are a few people who will pay the price, but not enough to manufactue.

$.02
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

[Thread landslide]

It's cool to hear opinions and thoughts from "recreational pilots", "commercial pilots", and those somewhere in-between, all flying "their mission" during a very evolving time for aviation.

I'm a salesman's dream, an impulse buyer. I bought my Skywagon because I rode in a friends 180 on a trip to introduce him to fly-fishing. I realized I needed a "go fast" plane to take me fishing and hunting. I chose the Skywagon because I think taildraggers are the coolest looking airplanes built. I chose the 185 because of the horsepower. I then accidentally spent a year doing upgrades and mods, all because I took something off and then thought "boy it would look/be better if".

A 206 would probably have been a more "logical" choice, certainly more comfortable, haul more people, and easier to load. This was really brought home to me when I was sitting next to my wagon at Flying B Ranch in Idaho, drinking a cup of coffee, admiring my "bush pilotness" when a retrac Saratoga landed - all of a sudden I had a lot less "bush pilot" in my "bush pilotness" (although shortly after a twin turbine Otter landed and I started feeling a little bit better about my "ness").

But the ramp appeal of a wagon on bushwheels, well it's hard to beat, and certainly can't be beat by a trike. I have no regrets, I love my wagon. She is perfect for my mission, getting me quickly to hunting and fishing, hauling everything I want - and keeping me alert on takeoffs and landings - and looking cool while doing it.

But the more I started playing off airport the more I realized I needed to be able to fly slower. I started asking questions about RSTOL, and researching 3-blade props for steeper descents and shorter takeoffs. Was planning on pulling the trigger on both of these next year.

In the meantime I decided to go to Alaska to learn how you guys fly your backcountry, and do a pre-buy on a SuperCub. And boy did I fly slow. Really, really slow. Everything looked like a landing strip. I had the time of my life.

So now I'm looking at my 185 in a different light. She may not get the RSTOL, nor the 3-blade. She may be perfect just as she is, even better perhaps if I go back to 26's and get 15mph cruise back - perhaps - we will see when the 29's wear out.

I guess my long winded point is if you're a "recreational pilot" choose a plane that makes you smile, "commercial pilot" choose a plane that makes you money, and "somewhere in-between" choose something in-between (but a bit more on the smile end me thinks). There is no perfect plane, only planes that do this or that a little better then others.

Oh, on evolving aviation, it was nirvana to see Lake Hood. Supercubs, Skywagons and Beavers as far as the eye could see, and the most beautiful turbine Otter on floats. Heck there was even a Maule ;-) and a Stearman. The "evolving aviation" part was hearing that the cost of gas was restricting a lot of pilots to only flying when they had paying clients - putting a huge dent in their dream I'm sure. That really sucks.
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

M6RV6 wrote:I don't think there are to many pilots out there who would buy a new 185 for $500,000 put 35's on it and try to go do the ridge top landing or the boulder strewn river bed with it!


This is true.
I'd bet when the first Toyota Corolla came out they were considered a pretty nice car. Too nice for the offroad crap we put our one though anyway :mrgreen:
Someone has to buy the nice vehicles of today, to become the paddock racers of tomorrow. Same goes for certain aircraft I guess.
To me, the price of a Carbon Cub is too steep to use it as a Super Cub. But that's just my financial situation, clearly others are more financially able!
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Battson wrote:
M6RV6 wrote:I don't think there are to many pilots out there who would buy a new 185 for $500,000 put 35's on it and try to go do the ridge top landing or the boulder strewn river bed with it!


This is true.
I'd bet when the first Toyota Corolla came out they were considered a pretty nice car. Too nice for the offroad crap we put our one though anyway :mrgreen:
Someone has to buy the nice vehicles of today, to become the paddock racers of tomorrow. Same goes for certain aircraft I guess.
To me, the price of a Carbon Cub is too steep to use it as a Super Cub. But that's just my financial situation, clearly others are more financially able!


Actually, considering that a new 172 currently goes for around $300 K, I'd bet a new 185 (or 206) would be more like $750 K before you got it out the door. Now, buy some tires, etc......

And, Barnstormer, you are 100 % correct on your assertions. If you can afford it, and you like it, go for it. Tailwheel or trigear is totally up to the purchaser. But, this discussion started with the suggestion that Cessna might or might not build a new tailwheel airplane, like the 185. And, the age old argument as to which "works" better in the back country.

But, if it floats your boat, I DEFINITELY think it's the best airplane you could possibly own.....till you find a different one you like....and that's okay as well.

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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

mtv wrote:
Battson wrote:
M6RV6 wrote:




I DEFINITELY think it's the best airplane you could possibly own.....till you find a different one you like....and that's okay as well.

MTV


Boy do I resemble that remark!! =D> :mrgreen:
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

M6RV6 wrote:Boy do I resemble that remark!! =D> :mrgreen:


You and me both! All I wanted was one plane. That certainly has gotten out of hand. :oops:
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

It is up to us to keep our production tail draggers maintained and in the air. I only hope that those owners after reading these post don't go out and install nose wheels. We have to preserve the remaining production taildraggers we have left. : ) remember the ladies thing!
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

This is not a comparison between TW and NW aircraft, but it's a great article about having fun in the backcountry with either.

https://www.facebook.com/planeandpilot/ ... 99819622:0

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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Pretty obvious the original question has been answered. But this thread drifted into something fun. One of the all time beer after a day of flying with your buddies hangin round the campfire discussion. :P
All you need is a super cub on 31's for the really fun stuff
A wagon rigged out to haul all your shit and get you most everywhere you wanna go almost just as fun
A beaver on floats for... Well, float fun(can exchange for something else of interest if live in the south) 8)
A beech-18 for all your shit and your buddies shit, fun flying, and cool factor
A turbine otter would be nice to. Save a little $ on gas. Haha :P
And that's all you need...
Oh and maybe a P-51
And that's it. That's all I need.
And a gas card. Actually I'd take that over all of em now sad to say. Great to dream tho.
If its got wings. Fly the shit out of it the best you can and have fun every time!!
And who knows. Maybe they'll be a "carbon Cessna" type company one day and make some more dreams come true. :D
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Re: Will we ever see another factory-new Cessna tail dragger

Yep, you got it....a true airplane junkie....my kinda guy.

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